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Hello friends
I have taken my practise license and am now marketing my services in my area/network. One area that I vulnerable is my preparedness in terms of software selection and a few other points.
I am reasonably confident i will get a few clients soon. My questions are:
i. What software do I use? i have done my computerised exams for level 2 and level 3 on Sage Instant Accounts and found it extremely easy to use.
however, numerous choices abound: Sage, Quickbooks, Clearbooks, Xero, kashflow, Mamut and some others recommended on software forum like VT.
the first decision is a desktop based version versus 'cloud' online versions. Whilst you pay for the desktop version only once (subject to upgrades), one has to pay for the online version in perpetuity.
a. Has anyone done a cost analysis on various software offerings? which one is value for money as one keeps adding clients in due course of time?
b. Ease of use: what is your experience?
c. Popularity: is it Sage or Quickbooks that you mostly encounter at small clients? What if a client uses one software and wants reports on ir rather than what i have selected?
ii. Website
I tried a 'DIY' on 123-reg.co.uk but am not so satisifed with my effort.
Any recommendations for a webdesigner at reasonable cost who can make it look professional enough? after all, its a static website (apart from updates on blogs etc), so its a one time cost.
iii. Engagement letter: any samples you have used?
iv. Pricing: How do you 'price' a job for example? Number of invoices/bank entries? how do you work out the number of hours it will take? on what basis do you give a quote? i intend to offer a price for the job within agreed number of transactions rather than 'per hour'.
v. mazumamoney: I wonder how they can offer their services at such an inexpensive rate? £20 per month seems cheap, they must have very effeciently stremlined their processing. Anyone know what software they use and how they keep their costs down. Just trying to understand their business model.
http://www.mazumamoney.co.uk/accountancy-bookkeeping-taxation-and-all-that/
just looking for you guys to point me in the right direction whilst i go through the hard part of 'setting up' and finding first few clients. i want to make good decisions on selecting software now and ensure processes and procedures are written down and adhered to for my own good.
I will be grateful for your help and assistance. I am learning fast but need a helping hand!
regards
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Hi Archie,It already seems your half-way there already Mate if your happy with sage Instants keep using it .The ICB should be able to help you out With Letter's of engagement,thats the agreement between you and the client.How much should you charge thats is again up to you and the client,however saying that you have earned the right to use the letters after your name so don't sell yourself cheap!!
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Hi Archie, i am new in practice as well.
i) I am veering to wanting to concentrate on Cloud packages e.g. Kashflow as you have already mentioned. They enable you to brand the software with your own logos, and to control what options the client has and what they can and cannot see, reports access etc. So you can collaborate with your client using this online software, i.e. they might want to raise sales invoices using it, put you process all the purchase invoices etc. You can pay for it or they can pay for it, it is more expensive though than say getting a 40 company Iris Bookkeeping licence.
I personally think that non cloud based accounting packages or at least packages that do not enable internet access for your clients are a thing of the past, albeit it will probably take a decade for them to expire.
ii) Get your website built by a freelance web designer on People per hour, mine was done by a freelancer. You can buy your domain name from getdotted.com
iii) im sure there is an engagement letter in the members area but there are also engagement letters on the ICAEW website which are very detailed according to the type of service you are selling.
iiiv) My approach to pricing is first by number of documents, this to a large extent is driving your workload. How long does it take you to process a supplier invoice, including making all necessary checks before entering it? Then you need to charge depending on their behaviour which could also drive your workload, e.g. are they paying suppliers frequently or infrequently (increasing perhaps your bank reconciliation tasks). You need to build some time in for general stuff, e.g. they call you, or something unsual requires investigating (say a supplier has invoiced twice for the same thing). I tend to think on a time frame of a year, so i might add 3 or 4 hours to a years quote (then divide by 12) for unexpected work. I would make an estimate after finding out as much about the business and transactions as possible but give a caveat you may need to adjust after the 1st 3 months, and be honest in that you reduce their fee if its not as much workload as anticipated.
v) perhaps they lure people in and then increas the price?
Edited at 26 Jul 2012 02:22 PM GMT
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Hi Archie,
What software do I use?
As you've already realised there are a few great systems out there, and a few not so great. I’m a big believer in choosing a system to suit the client rather than trying to shoehorn clients into systems just because that’s what you use, or even worse they think that’s what they need. I use 2 pieces of bookkeeping software at present, QuickBooks and VT Transatcion+. I find they complement each other very well in my practice. VT Transaction+ is great for smaller clients and if they need more advanced features I put them onto QuickBooks. The thing I like about these, unlike Sage, is that they are multi company packages as standard. I don’t need to pay more money to add another client.
I did look at cloud based offerings but for a number of reasons have steered clear at present. Kashflow seem to have an interesting offering right now though in that they have a cloud based system with software that can run locally for data entry.
I have never had a client dictate which software to use, their accountants sometimes try, but none successfully at present. Mainly because they cannot offer reasoned arguments as to why their clients should be using a particular system other than “that’s what we use”. Most clients I have want the information about their business presented in a format which is easy to read, they don’t tend to have a great depth of knowledge in software packages and the pros and cons of each. If they did, I doubt they’d need me.
Websites
Your website is very much your window to the world, if you are not confident that you can do it justice you are right in seeking to find someone who can. Blatant advertising here, but I have started working with a couple of local designers as an add on to the services I am offering my clients. Why not drop me an email to kris@kmbookkeeping.co.uk and I’ll see if I can get you some help and a decent price.
Engagement Letter
As has been said previously, the ICB letter of engagement is not the best, and they are doing something to rectify that. I can tell you the information I put in mine, but given that I’m not a solicitor I am hesitant to give you a copy incase it’s not water tight and you suffer any fallout.
Pricing
Pricing is the 64 million dollar question. You’ll notice from a quick trawl of the forum that there are some pretty divided views. There are three main camps when it comes to pricing for bookkeeping services these are by the hour, fixed and value. There are pros and cons of each. Each method has people who love it, and those who hate it and there is plenty of crossover between the three. My favoured option is somewhere between fixed and value pricing as I understand it.
I find it interesting that after so much training and education that bookkeepers still sell time rather than expertise. After all there are a finite number of hours in a week, and therefore a finite amount you can earn by selling your time. Once you move to selling your knowledge you open that potential for earnings a bit.
Mazumamoney
Regarding mazumamoney, I’m not sure. I imagine that they reason they can do it is based on volume. Perhaps they scan everything and have software to automate much of the process in a similar way to receipt bank. Hope this answers a few of your questions.
Regards
Kris
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Hi Guys,
Mazumamoney are they really cheap? STARTING FROM £20+VAT pm for self employed. STARTING FROM £60+ VAT pm for Limited Companies. £25 + VAT start up fee.
Prices vary depending on location. And the biggy... * additional charges apply.
Web design. I found the problem was they have set up fees ranging from £150 to £700 and then £50 to £100 pm maintenance charges. Contract periods varied from 12 to 36 months. After several failed attempts I ended up with a great guy I feltcomfortable with. He did the lot for a fixed fee incluing, training on updates + 2 email addresses and after 1 year it costs £100 for hosting. Bit like finding the right bookkeeper in some ways.
Tim
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Timmsaid:
“ Hi Guys,
Mazumamoney are they really cheap? STARTING FROM £20+VAT pm for self employed. STARTING FROM £60+ VAT pm for Limited Companies. £25 + VAT start up fee.
Prices vary depending on location. And the biggy... * additional charges apply.
”
I assume you never did a quote Tim? I did one earlier and it came out at £20+VAT per month for a non VAT registered sole trader. I thought maybe they had silly limites on transactions, so I phoned and they told me the limit is 2000 per year, or 166 per month. Thats loads for most businesses I deal with.
They also claim not to outsource to other countries. Luckily I am not in direct competition with them as my clients want the face to face service, but I was I'd be scared.
Kris
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My replies highlighted in yellow
Archie.
kjmccullochsaid:
“Hi Archie,
What software do I use?
As you've already realised there are a few great systems out there, and a few not so great. I’m a big believer in choosing a system to suit the client rather than trying to shoehorn clients into systems just because that’s what you use, or even worse they think that’s what they need. I use 2 pieces of bookkeeping software at present, QuickBooks and VT Transatcion+. I find they complement each other very well in my practice. VT Transaction+ is great for smaller clients and if they need more advanced features I put them onto QuickBooks. The thing I like about these, unlike Sage, is that they are multi company packages as standard. I don’t need to pay more money to add another client. Good point.
I did look at cloud based offerings but for a number of reasons have steered clear at present. Kashflow seem to have an interesting offering right now though in that they have a cloud based system with software that can run locally for data entry.
its worth thinking about 'cloud' vs 'desktop only' version. I tend to agree with Stevie boy that eventually clients would like to have access themselves to their data but it may be a while; the advantage of desktop versions is that our clients will tend to rely on us and being small businesses, probably want it that way too. But it is a key decision and i will explore this carefully before finsalising, great feedback from all.. thanks
Websites
Your website is very much your window to the world, if you are not confident that you can do it justice you are right in seeking to find someone who can. Blatant advertising here, but I have started working with a couple of local designers as an add on to the services I am offering my clients. Why not drop me an email to kris@kmbookkeeping.co.uk and I’ll see if I can get you some help and a decent price.
I will get back to you Kris on this issue if its not resolved.
Engagement Letter
As has been said previously, the ICB letter of engagement is not the best, and they are doing something to rectify that. I can tell you the information I put in mine, but given that I’m not a solicitor I am hesitant to give you a copy incase it’s not water tight and you suffer any fallout.
As mentioned by Stevie boy, I will check the ICAEW site to see if i can adapt one.
Pricing
I find it interesting that after so much training and education that bookkeepers still sell time rather than expertise. After all there are a finite number of hours in a week, and therefore a finite amount you can earn by selling your time. Once you move to selling your knowledge you open that potential for earnings a bit.
Agree with you 100% Kris! If we allow the discussion to stay at a base level of £/hour, we will encourage our clients to see bookkeeping service simply as a 'cost' to be reviewed and beaten down by the next guy! We have to shift the discussion to what 'value is added' to their business and the specialised knowledge we bring and the service we provide. only this knowledge based selling approach on a collective basis can help maintain the profession's respect and value. I think ICB should take the lead in educating all members about the 'knowledge approach' and periodic ICB conferences should cover this.
Regards
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kjmccullochsaid:
“Timmsaid:
“ Hi Guys,
Mazumamoney are they really cheap? STARTING FROM £20+VAT pm for self employed. STARTING FROM £60+ VAT pm for Limited Companies. £25 + VAT start up fee.
Prices vary depending on location. And the biggy... * additional charges apply.
”
I assume you never did a quote Tim? I did one earlier and it came out at £20+VAT per month for a non VAT registered sole trader. I thought maybe they had silly limites on transactions, so I phoned and they told me the limit is 2000 per year, or 166 per month. Thats loads for most businesses I deal with.
They also claim not to outsource to other countries. Luckily I am not in direct competition with them as my clients want the face to face service, but I was I'd be scared.
Kris ”
Guys...this IS Scary! our business depends on clients wanting and appreciating the 'face to face service' we provide. otherwise, bookkeeping is commoditised to the lowest cost provider. iCB need to emphasise the value aspect of our service versus a cost approach as highlighted by Kris in his earlier post.
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