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I have just been going through a topic that i found very interesteding but was un able to comment because its members area however we can read it.
It was basically debating about members newly qualified setting up business with out adaquate experience also spoke about mentoring newly qualified B.keepers. Which I thought was a good idea other it sounded more like mothering,
I want to say that personally when i set up my business i aim to do what i feel i am able to manage and grow my knowledge and experience as i go. I hope to find a Qualified and Experience Accountant with the added knowledge that i dont have yet. As for getting experience thats a joke in the current market. I went for a job where basically i was told that he thought i would get the knowledge i wanted and the go off else where I suspect the truth was i didn't want someone who was going to be qualified as the wage with reflect those qualifications Also we have the back up of the CIAB for advice.
However I do understand their views but when you look at the info video on this site people mention that they set up their business straight after qualifying and have support on the phone from the CIAB. What do you all think Run before you can walk or what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Hi Mary,
I read the very same thread, and to be honest I was a little surprised by some of the responses from experienced people.
I kind of sit in the middle of all this really. Whilst I can understand that experience is important, I do not think it is the be all and end all. For my mind, the fundamentals of this job are about applying knowledge, and that is what the examination process sets about doing. Obviously the exams don't give you everything you need to start a successful business, but they give you a product to sell in that you are a qualified bookkeeper.
From experience, I am studying AAT also, and was doing so before I got made redundant from the mortgage industry in Jan 2010. As there was certainly no jobs doing what I knew best, I applied for many and various positions in accounts - only to be told categorically that I had no chance because I had no experience. I didn't matter what knowledge I had, or that I have years of experience working in an office environment dealing with big numbers.
The way I got the experience I needed was to volunteer at a construction company where the accounts bod was going on maternity leave for 9 months. Now of course I have learnt certain things through this experience, but they were more industry specific to construction than to accounts. However, now I am worth speaking too as far as recruitment goes!! But the job market is still a very tough place to be right now. You only have to look at the Reed website to see how many people are applying for each role.
For me, I made the decision to go self employed last summer, and that's what I have worked towards until the beginning of this year. So now I am out on my own, and my volunteer role has become my first client. I, like you, intend to keep trying to improve myself along the way. After finishing AAT, there is a raft of other things I want to do to help this business achieve - my family has a future that depends on that.
So what has all my waffling got to do with anything? Not a lot really. I find some of the experienced members of the ICB to be somewhat dismissive if you lack experience. But how can you get that experience without applying the knowledge you have somehow. On the flipside, at a branch meeting I went to, there were people who were up in arms about having to sit another Manual exam as they had qualified by the Computerised route. They already have their practices running, and had their noses put firmly out of joint at this prospect. But who has the greater knowledge? Someone who has completed the Manual route to level 3, or the Computerised member who punched some numbers into Sage?
Ultimately, it is down to you as an individual to make your business work when you get qualified. If you can sufficeintly impress prospective clients of your ability, and the price is right, then I don't think the experience is an issue. But that's just me.......
Good Luck going forward though.
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Well put Jason.....
Because of experience I have picked up some bad habits/short cuts, hence part of the reason I worked my way through the manual and sat the exams instead of asking for references for exemption.
I still have bad habits, even in practice, one shining example today - I look to my experience and occasionally think - damn ....should have gone stuck with the basics. Thankfully, nothing that will affect the Client. I'm not that bad.....
Experience helps speed in bookkeeping but can also hinder (overthinking etc.).
At least now I can phone the ICB and check.
It would be interesting to do a survey on so called 'bad bookkeepers' whether they had experience or if they were qualified or both.
So possibly the idea that one practice member mentioned was that we should submit work to the ICB after setting up in Practice would be the line to go down.
Finally realised what this is a bit like: Driving
You learn what you need for the test and then you go out into the big bad world. It takes years to develop the bad habits and most drivers will admit to not being able to pass the theory 10 years on. 
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- Fellow PM.Dip
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Well I sit firmly on one side of this debate, with a few caveats :)
Professional qualifications should equip you to do the job, otherwise what value are they?
I think bookkeeping is in transition in other regulated professions - accountants, lawyers, electricians, heating engineers ... qualifications and experience go hand-in-hand. But there are still many unqualified yet experienced bookkeepers in the workplace because historically it hasn't been necessary for them to be qualified.
I started my career as an aircraft technician in the RAF and heard the same arguments. At the time there were 3 routes to become a technician - as an apprentice which took 3 years , join as mechanic with 3 months training then after at least 2 years experience go back for 6 months training or as a direct entrant with 9 months training and straight out into the workplace. I chose the latter, I heard a few mutterings about direct entrants not being able to do the job, but I got stuck in and pretty soon no one mentioned it.
Experience and qualifications matter, as has been said it is a chicken and egg thing, at the moment it is possible to get the qualifications without experince and so tremendous opportunity to dive in.
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- Fellow PM.Dip
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Hi All,
I am with the firm belief that BOTH qualifications and experience are important.
While qualifications can help you get to grips with the basic principles of bookkeeping, there are very complicated transactions out there in the real world that only experience (and an accountant or two) can help you enter correctly.
I have 3 and a half years experience and still come across things in the exams that I have not done before (i.e. partnership accounts), but the Level 3 text book which I am studying is helping me to understand these along with the extra help of more experienced members on the forum.
There is a learning curve with bookkeeping and everyone has to start somewhere. The basic rule is that if you don't feel confident enough to do the work, then don't do it or get the help of an accountant or ICB.
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I wonder whether there are a number of factors in play here? First off - are there any who are going down the qualification route and then expecting to jump straight in, feet first expecting to pay their mortgage, foreign holidays etc?
I have been in an accounts environment for over 40 years, self employed since 1999. The income generated in 1999 compared with now has fallen dramatically to a third of what it was. And in that time I have had to get myself properly qualified and regulated with the associated costs.
I am struggling to find clients. And I have the dilemma of whether or not to try employment again with all of the pros and cons which go with it. So I am undertaking a college course in another direction which hopefully will give me another route to follow and can comfortably dovetail into my known profession.
Second - is the perceived decline in standards due to the way in which learning is delivered? Some find distance learning ideal others may prefer classroom environment. A review of local colleges identifies that Bookkeeping courses are provided but it is the AAT qualification being delivered.
I don't know how the distance learning courses are delivered but I have a perception - which may be totally wrong - that there may be a shortage of student support. This is based on the number of questions which are now appearing on the forum.
So on that point - and in some way backing up Stuart on the original thread - why would any of us provide the support for free when bigger organisations have already had the rich pickings? Perhaps the course providers may consider setting up a talent pool to provide advice and remunerate those who provide the support accordingly.
Lastly the question is - is this now an overcrowded profession and if so who is to blame? Perhaps HMRC who introduced the requirement for Accountancy Service Providers to be regulated yet (as the evidence substantiates) does little more than a box ticking exercise for a fee. The result being that those who are a)competent b) professional and most importantly c) qualified are competing against those who do not fit any of the a) b) and/or c) and carry out the work at a fraction of the cost knowing that their clients will be more than happy to cut corners.
Someone told my wife once that they had found someone else to do their accounts "because Geoff is not creative enough".!!!
Geoff Smith
www.accountslegal.co.uk
Edited at 04 Mar 2011 01:01 PM GMT
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- Fellow PM.Dip
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Geoff said:
“
Someone told my wife once that they had found someone else to do their accounts "because Geoff is not creative enough".!!!
Geoff Smith
www.accountslegal.co.uk
Edited at 04 Mar 2011 01:01 PM GMT”
Hi Geoff,
That last line really made me laugh but it does have a serious point to it, and if your client wants you to "fiddle" with the books (so called creative accounting) then it's a good thing you didn't and that he went somewhere else!
Edited at 04 Mar 2011 01:25 PM GMT
Edited at 04 Mar 2011 01:26 PM GMT
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- Companion Fellow PM.Dip
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Jason said:
“Hi Mary,
I read the very same thread, and to be honest I was a little surprised by some of the responses from experienced people.
Mary Said
It was basically debating about members newly qualified setting up business with out adaquate experience also spoke about mentoring newly qualified B.keepers. Which I thought was a good idea other it sounded more like mothering,
_______________________________________________________________________
Hi Jason.
I am one of the members and fellows who commented on this thread. I am not sure why you were a little surprised by some of the responses.
I actually think you need both so it interesting the topic is Qualifications V Experience as all members will have their Qualifications at various levels.
Like any other qualifications you are required to pass exams and to become a fellow you are required to have a level of experience. On this thread it was discussed that gaining experience was hard at this time, which I acknowledge was a valid concern as part of that discussion on that thread. Members where general trying to come up with ideas. I find the view that experience is not the be all and all interesting and I am not sure my clients would agree . I think you need to have your exams as well so you don,t pick up bad habits.
I will not pretend that I don,t have an issue with members advertising services that their qualification does not allow them to do. That is not to say they not qualified by a other professional body, and I have had no problem telling clients and have done so ,what any of competitors are qualified to do. thats called running a busy and all is fair if their been dishonest on their website or advertising.
Mary you mention, '' other then it sounded more like mothering'' This is experienced Associates, members and Fellows trying to find a solution and to help other members.
When I was a student the more help you can get from anyone the better. ( Mary I am sorry but I had hoped we were been supportive and I know you will do well )
If a student comes on and asks a question out of interest should we answer it?. My response could be you have a book and you should be able to work it out for yourself , and not be concerned that any advice is seen as mothering. By the way I hope I would never say that to a student as its not very helpful . I would always prefer to help.
Edited at 04 Mar 2011 04:52 PM GMT
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“Geoff said:
“
Someone told my wife once that they had found someone else to do their accounts "because Geoff is not creative enough".!!!
Geoff Smith
www.accountslegal.co.uk
hehehehe - so they wanted an artist then.
Dont you just love the perceptions that clients have of us and what we are allowed to do!
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- Companion Fellow PM.Dip
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Liz D said:
““Geoff said:
“
Someone told my wife once that they had found someone else to do their accounts "because Geoff is not creative enough".!!!
Geoff Smith
www.accountslegal.co.uk
hehehehe - so they wanted an artist then.
Dont you just love the perceptions that clients have of us and what we are allowed to do!
Liz. Geoff
Liz and Geoff this could be Fridays joke. Sounds like you were best rid of them Geoff
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sarah said:
I find the view that experience is not the be all and all interesting and I am not sure my clients would agree . I think you need to have your exams as well so you don,t pick up bad habits.
Hi Sarah
Of course, in an ideal world everyone that uses a bookkeeper would find someone qualified to the hilt and with years of experience behind them. But that is not the reality, or really the point I was trying to make.
Just to give you an example, at the place where I was volunteering I was initially just helping out with whatever was needed. A lovely woman called Jan actually came in to do all the bookkeeping for about 3 weeks. This particular woman had (so she claimed, and was verified) over 10 years experience doing the books for her husbands business, and several private clients.
She walked away after 3 weeks because she couldn't understand the systems in place with regards to the record keeping required for a construction firm, and CIS caused her all sorts of problems, despite her claims that she knew how to do it. Jan with all her experience, had no qualifications whatsoever. I then took over and spent the best part of 3 months correcting everything she had put wrong. Now at the time, I had no qualifications that were relevant either. I had knowledge, sure. But I was just finishing my first year with AAT, and hadn't started with ICB at this point.
What I am trying to get at, is that I don't think Mary should be deterred by her lack of experience if she is confident that she can do a good and proper job within her remit. From the other thread, I personally felt that there was not a massive amount of encouragement for newly qualified bookkeepers with no prior experience. It was feeling like a very closed shop at times. If she sells herself properly, then there is no reason she can't or won't pick up clients against competitors with more experience. But that can come down to charisma as much as anything I suppose.
Also, just to pick up on a point Geoff made with regards to Distance Learning. I personally think that most people see it as a quicker means to an end. I personally prefer College based studying because it gives you the regular support of a tutor and classmates. But I took the DL route through Kaplan for ICB for speed and convenience. No the support wasn't the best i've ever had (they certainly give more focus to AAT), but I have a friend at college that is also taking an accounting course through the Open University, and can't speak highly enough of them. I don't feel either route contributes to a perceived decline in standards. In fact, I think that the ICB insisting on everyone passing at least the Manual 2 paper is an improvement is standards.
Sorry if I waffle a bit. I tend to get side-tracked mid way through typing, and forget what my point was!!
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Hi Jason
I really hope the thread was not seen as closed shop. As I really would not want that. I was very interested in this thread as I believe the more experience members should be able to help if they want to.
I hope it came across that I was trying to help when for example Moira mention about not been able to get the experience. I hoped my comments on that thread were supportive and if not they were meant to.
I really hope Mary does well, none of us our experts not even fellows and we all need help now and then including myself. Which is what I was trying to encourage on that thread. I am not sure who Mary was referring to about been mothering , but I think most people on that thread including Joy who started that thread were trying to be supportive and trying to find a solution if you cannot get the experience at the moment
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Hi
Below is a reply I added previously to the Practice Licence area of the forum and as I am not sure if everyone can access that area, I have copied it to this thread. I am new to bookkeeping and I was surprised that there is no requirement for qualifications in this area of empolyment. I know there are people out there who have been doing a good job without qualifications but I think it will be good if the ICB can raise the profile of bookkeepers in general.
"Perhaps the ICB could issue your initial Practice Licence with the provision that, you would have to submit a selection of your work at various times to be assessed e.g. once a month over a 2 year period, to make sure you are providing an acceptable standard of work. This should also appy to those with experience since, as before, experience can vary.
As I said, I agree that qualifications and experience are a good combination but the job market is a different place from 30 years ago and getting experience is even harder than it used to be and again perphaps we need a system that allows for trainee bookkeepers.
If an assessment process was too big a project for the ICB, on its own, then perhaps they could ask accountancy practices to be part of the accreditation process and vet them to be approved assessors. The cost could be included in your Practice Licence or if it was too large, then perhaps it could be paid up over the 2 years? I am not against the idea that there should be certain standards throughout the profession but we need to find a way to allow everyone a chance to achieve that standard and therefore give clients more confidence in our qualifications and abilities."
Moira
Edited at 04 Mar 2011 03:02 PM GMT
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This is an indication (and by no means criticim of the student) of the problems that arise from distance learning as referred to in my previous posting
Hello,
I'm doing a home learning book keeping course and am confused by the term 'cash discount'. It implies that the discount can only be taken if you are paying in cash but in the examples in the course notes the cash discount is often taken when paying by cheque. Am I just mis-understanding the term?
I know what my answer would be (and one which I think would be acceptable) - but that is not necesarily the right answer that the exam paper will be looking for. So the danger here is that a student may fail an exam by receiving wrong answers. I recall that on my entrance paper the comment was made that "the bank reconciliation is rather unconventional". Fortunately it did not affect my mark but another examiner could have felt differently.
Question - where is the student support from the course provider?
Hopefully when (if) the Legal Bookkeping Course gets released the forum will be full of positive comments from members about the support they receive!!
With regard to verification - who is going to pick up the cost? It is a very fine balancing act. For example I have just had to pay £75 to renew my practice licence, £99 for my insurance and my membership renewal will be £103.50 - just short of £300 before I can even talk to a client.
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Hi Sarah/Geoff
Sarah, I think your comments have been supportive and can see that you would like there to be a solution to this issue.
Geoff, I realise that the costs can mount up and I have suggested that you could pay by instalments, when you submit your work for assessment and it would be for the first 2 years only, after you started your business. That's assuming you get any clients and have work to submit, which I would not have been able to do and I can see me having to quit at the end of my first year, as I am having trouble finding clients.
Moira
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- Companion Fellow PM.Dip
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Hi Moira
My first year was awful, I did a part time job until it got better it was 10 years ago. There was thread in early days help needed where members had ideas to get clients. I will see if I can see which one it was.
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- Fellow PM.Dip
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Hi Moira
I think it would be a good idea to add some sort of experience element to gaining membership and a practise license, but I can see some difficulty with it.
You would have to tell prospective clients you would be submitting their accounts to a third party. What if the client refused, would you turn down their business? If you put too many barriers up before qualifications can be gained in an industry where qualification is not yet a legal requirement then you end up with more unqualified practitioners rather than less.
Mike
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Moira - yes I did see that. So what happens if a member signs up, the ICB enters into an agreement with an acountancy firm and commits to a fee and then the member gives up or isnt up to the mark?
The ICB - and ultimately the members - will be left to pick up the tab.
It is obviously an emotive subject and there are plenty of ideas around for thought. No doubt this will be on the agenda at the seminars and the Advisory Council.
My perception - and again it may be wrong - is that the focus should be on getting the education right in the first place and then ongoing assesment by some means. I was certainly under presure when I had to do all of my exams and get them back in two weeks but it did put my knowledge and experience to the test.
If you take the entrance paper as an example - my area of specialism, as you may have gathered, is in legal accounts which I have been working in for over thirty years. Not a single question on legal accounts (most unreasonable ) but if I did not have the knowledge and experience and ability then I wouldn't be on this forum now.
And the reason I wrote the Legal Bookkeeping Course was due to my perception that there is inadequate training to achieve a recognised qualification in that field and follow up support.
By the same token even with my many years of experience I am not contemplating the Level IV because I think, for me at least, it will be a step too far, thus I recognise my own limitations.
It is all like the hamster and wheel, many want to jump onto the wheel for the ride, some are capable of lasting the distance, others like myself will know where to get on and off, and of course there are also many who don't realise when to get off - damaging themselves and the wheel (the profession) in the process.
Geoff
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Hi All
This is shaping up to be a very emotive subject. I would hope that no-one feels this is a closed shop because in many respects we are all students as we never stop learning.
Only today I wish I had Geoff with me as for the first time in twenty years I have had to deal with bookkeeping for a law firm and all the complexities the law society insist on (I am really really looking forward to the release of the legal bokkeeping course Geoff).
Qualifications are important so is experiance and also CPD. I have worked in the accounting industry for 20 years in various roles in industry and commerce from a Ledger clerk to a Finance Director I have also worked for Chartered accountants and run my own bookkeeping practice.
I am now back in employment working for a practice of accountants looking after the client services team dealing with the bookkeeping, VAT returns management accounts etc thankfully i get out of Audit's and statutory accounts prep  .
I do appreciate the chicken and egg situation and how frustrating it can be the idea is not to shut the door on letting the newly qualified for practising but ensure they a fully equipped to deal with demands placed on them by clients.
I can remember the simpler times pre Enron, Worldcom and 9/11 since then more and more legislation is being heaped on us and we are being held to account more than ever. When I was first in practice with a charted accountants many many years ago we prepared the accounts based soley on the information provided and they signed to say that they had provided all relevant information i.e. if anything came to light the accountants were not repsonsbile, This has changed post 9/11 and accountants are falling foul of their "Creative" skills and landing up in one her majesty's hotels for an extended stay.
We as supervised accounting professionals can be held equally to account.
My point is exams teach us the knowledge experiance teaches us it's application.
Other professional bodies require exams and experiance and are not closed shops so why would the ICB moving down this route been seen as closing the shop all we are trying to do is continually enhance the professional body we belong to and therefore enhance the standing of the entire membership body.
The problem is there are really good people who know how far to go and there are also those that get themselves in way over their heads as they have an inflated opinion of their abilities. This applies to everyone both qulaified and unqualified people.
The question is simply how do we support and develop each other in a way that ensures NO-ONE swims out of their depth and every one is properly equipped to face clients.
Geoff made a very serious point not all clients are honest some fiddle a little other majorly the trick is knowing how to deal with those clients and deal with the situations that arise from them.
Warmest regards
Stuart
ps sorry if it got a bit ramberley.
pps Sorry for any spelling mistakes
Edited at 06 Mar 2011 11:51 PM GMT
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Rather agree with your post Stuart.
We can't expect high rewards and low regulation; that's made the investment banker a social pariah.
Level 4 opens a really big door of opportunity.
No-one likes exams, but it does give credibility, and the ICB is not trying to control the pass rates, so it is a good measure of professional competence in a friendly, supportive, assistance based community.
Can't wait for the CPD meeting, and of course the end of year international conference.
Like you, I have experienced the CA practice workplace. It is not for me, but I enjoyed being at the coalface assisting the client.
ICB offers a very attractive alternative way to work if bookkeeping and accounts / tax prep floats your boat.
Edited at 06 Mar 2011 10:36 PM GMT
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Hi yes I did mean IAB. Thanks for your points I just want to add that mentoring is a great idea. People want to think how much time and patience they would have for this because some people may play on your support.
I would take time and support one member was concerned that students may steal their clients so one option would be to sign so sort of agreement. Just a thought I am not legally trained but I may help both parties.
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Hi Jason
Thank you for what you said I know we all need experience but then again we have paid out money to get the training and exams lets face it there are to many cow boys out there and like you I want to do the best job. I can because It will come back on be If I don't do a good job and keep to the standards of BK association and inland revenue ect.
I feel the same about the comp acc's I am doing both manual and computerised b.k so why not everyone.
Although I feel for those who have to do the manual exam but its on the computer which is great. There was a time when the t. accounts ect had to be design during your exam. Times change so much but that's life
Edited at 11 Mar 2011 12:59 AM GMT
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I do apreciate that you were trying to find a way to help students. Really so many of us do want to learn and get the correct advice and support from those who know what is going on.
Even I have noticed that some people appear to be running before the can walk.
Taking on workthat possible they are not experience or lack the qualifications and that worries me. I have read the forum and the newsletter and learned so much. Which to my knowledge isnt covered in the books.
We can all work together to keep the standards high and the rubbish out but it takes time and energy. The mentoring is a great idea just wondering how much it would cost and how it would be carried out. There was something about checking people's work I have no problem with that infact I thought maybe we could do something through accountants and inland revenue. But please remeber we are just trying to do our best I am going to try and get part time work and so how I get on as an employee but I also beleive that going s.employed is a good idea too although I know its going to be very tough.
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Hi Mary
I think you have raised some very good points about learning from the forum and highlighting areas that are not covered by the books. I felt the CIS was a good example of this.
I have always had concerns that the books and exams do not represent real life situations, which is why this discussion has been raised which is good for us all to have. I think as part of the studies we should have more real life case studies and to see how a students and members would approach it. I have problems understanding why this can not be brought it to the studies, of course there are many solutions. But I don,t think we should have to learn rules and regulations from a forum. If it is a legal requirement to produce something for companies house to give to an accountant and the HM required for anything to be done . Then we should be covering it.
As you know I think it is in the interest of all members and students to keep the standards high, and if getting experience is hard at the moment, they we need to find a solution and I actually think mentoring is a good thing . I am not talking about things like advertising or getting clients. I mean mentoring in practical areas of doing bookkeeping.
I know it is really hard for people to get work at the moment, so in fact this discussion is needed to deal with the fact that members and student are not getting the opportunity to get the experience.
Edited at 11 Mar 2011 11:52 AM GMT
Edited at 11 Mar 2011 11:53 AM GMT
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- Member PM.Dip
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I have read this thread with interest and agree with the members who say qualification and experience are both important. However, getting the experience is difficult.
Geoff, you wonder why people take a DL course instead of going to college? Simple, if like me you already have a full time job, it is the only way. I do not see it as an easy option, after all, learning is challenging which ever way you do it. The DL provider I use is supportive of it's students but sometimes with the immediacy of the internet and forums such as this, it can be quicker to just post a question and get an answer from an experienced/qualified bookkeeper. Sometimes as you deliberate on a question, you think you are right and then the doubt creeps in.......
I would just like to end by saying thank you the members on here who are supporting us students, it is much appreciated.
linx_p
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linx_p said:
“
I have read this thread with interest and agree with the members who say qualification and experience are both important. However, getting the experience is difficult.
Geoff, you wonder why people take a DL course instead of going to college? Simple, if like me you already have a full time job, it is the only way. I do not see it as an easy option, after all, learning is challenging which ever way you do it. The DL provider I use is supportive of it's students but sometimes with the immediacy of the internet and forums such as this, it can be quicker to just post a question and get an answer from an experienced/qualified bookkeeper. Sometimes as you deliberate on a question, you think you are right and then the doubt creeps in.......
I would just like to end by saying thank you the members on here who are supporting us students, it is much appreciated.
linx_p
”
I'm with you there linx and I suspect the ICB agree, otherwise why would they have a student section on the forum which is open to students and members.
As a student I found this section an invaluable resources and read all the posts. It is the responsibility of DL providers to support their students in the first instance. But since there are more than one providing DL for ICB qualifications it is a great additional support for all students to access this forum.
Mike
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I am hoping that someone can point me in the right direction – where did I question the right of anyone to do distance learning?
It is of course important to quote correctly. I thought I actually said that distance learning suits some whereas others prefer college?
The point I did make was that, on the basis of postings on the forum – and some members have underlined this – there appeared to be a lack of support. It was a generalisation nothing more as I don’t have specific evidence. It certainly did not criticise those who choose distance learning.
Members will help and the evidence is there for all to see. The danger is, and I made the point in another posting, that a member could give an answer which they think is right – because it works for them – but may not be the answer which is required in an exam. So the correct point of referral - to ensure the best chance of success - is the course provider.
Edited at 12 Mar 2011 02:12 PM GMT
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- Member PM.Dip
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Geoff said:
“
I am hoping that someone can point me in the right direction – where did I question the right of anyone to do distance learning?
Sorry Geoff, it was my interpretation of comments made not a direct quote, to do with 'perceived decline in standards' hope I didn't offend.
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Hi everyone I feel some what bad for starting this I do hope I haven't upset anyone. That really wasn't my intention. Thank you so much for all the comments. I hope that we can have more of these great debates really soon.
Thanks again to students and more experienced members for the support and guidance we get on this forum a Big Thank you to the CIA for all there help too.
We really dont know how luck we are when so many people are having so a terrible time at least we have support and freedom to do what we want.
Thanks again
Mary
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- Companion Fellow PM.Dip
- Practice Licence
- 1137 posts
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Hi Mary
I don,t think you have any reason to feel bad for bringing up the debate . Were all adults and of course we will have different opinions on a subject like this . Every view point and interpretation of points are valid. Its is harder on a forum as you can not see the person you are talking to and sometimes it will happen that members will read and interpret comments in certain way , which is maybe not the way the writer meant them to come across. This will happen from time to time with everyone and does so on loads of forums . It is a professional body and I doubt we will all agree on everything all the time.
I know I mentioned about mothering but I was trying to explain were I was coming from on that thread in response to both your concerns and Jasons. I think its healthy to have a good debate
Edited at 14 Mar 2011 07:51 AM GMT
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Hi all
I agree with Sarah I think debates are a very healthy thing as they bring multiple view points to the tae and allow a given subject to be viewed from many view points. However when replying to my posts I would always asked you to bear the following rules in mind :-
Rule 1 I AM NEVER WRONG
Rule 2 If you think i may be mistaken or incorrect see rule 1.
Warmest Regards
Stuart
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- Fellow PM.Dip
- Practice Licence
- 115 posts
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I agree I think this has been a healthy debate, the fact that it has involved differing views of students, recently qualified members and experienced members reinforces this. If a thread attracts so many differing points of view then there must be something important at stake. So far from apologising for raising this thread Mary should be congratulated for it!
A forum is not the place for an argument, but I don't see it has descended to this.
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It is of course very important to make sure that you are dealing with the correct organisation.
We have had a reference to CIAB, then IAB and now the CIA.
Stuart - have you ever tried to be a football referee? I found that maxim very helpful during my time on the pitch!
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- Member PM.Dip
- Practice Licence
- 9 posts
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I've found this debate interesting. I gained my 'experience' working on a voluntary basis for a local pre-school nursery. Some of the Level 1/2 was used but general common sense was what was really needed. I was fortunate to obtain my current job because i had this experience and could relate to it in an interview. I made no secret of the fact that I didn't have a great deal of 'real' experience but the scenario that is presented in study material and exams helped to convince my boss that I was capable.
However, on starting the job I found that I really started to learn. I've struggled with expenses disguised as petty cash and just what you can claim VAT back on. Every trader will keep records of purchases, sales etc but they don't always fit into the nice categories that the ICB prescribe or appear in the nice order that they do in the ICB exams.
All credit due to any new bookkeepers who have the confidence to start their own business.
Out of curiosity, any self employed with little post qual experience, have you worked out how much time you spend on the ICB helpline/forums?
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If it helps, I had my most angry scary face on when I was typing grrrrrr.......
sarah said:
“Its is harder on a forum as you can not see the person you are talking to and sometimes it will happen that members will read and interpret comments in certain way , which is maybe not the way the writer meant them to come across."
Edited at 14 Mar 2011 07:51 AM GMT”
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You know what, I could have married you instead of my wife. It would have been the same outcome either way, only with more facial hair (although the wife does sport a fine Fu Manchu).
Stuart Wildman said:
“Hi all
I agree with Sarah I think debates are a very healthy thing as they bring multiple view points to the tae and allow a given subject to be viewed from many view points. However when replying to my posts I would always asked you to bear the following rules in mind :-
Rule 1 I AM NEVER WRONG
Rule 2 If you think i may be mistaken or incorrect see rule 1.
Warmest Regards
Stuart”
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LOL @ Jason
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I've met Stuart , as far as I know Jason I havent met your wife.
As soon as I do I will give you an honest bookkeepers opinion as to which is the more preferable!
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For your own health, pray you don't have to meet my wife!!
Geoff said:
“I've met Stuart , as far as I know Jason I havent met your wife.
As soon as I do I will give you an honest bookkeepers opinion as to which is the more preferable!
”
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I can't even give myself away.
I've spoken to local accountants (2 of them) and offered to work for them on a voluntary basis just so I can clock up a little experience - and also so they can see how good I am (potentially) but they are just not interested. Have level 2 comp, and I'm sitting level 2 manual in a fortnight but I've completed the course already.
As far as I'm aware my physical appearance and clothing is acceptible, unless there's something growing out of my head that I can't see........
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or maybe they just don't like my "fine Fu Manchu"
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gigagirl said:
“I can't even give myself away.
I've spoken to local accountants (2 of them) and offered to work for them on a voluntary basis just so I can clock up a little experience - and also so they can see how good I am (potentially) but they are just not interested. Have level 2 comp, and I'm sitting level 2 manual in a fortnight but I've completed the course already.
As far as I'm aware my physical appearance and clothing is acceptible, unless there's something growing out of my head that I can't see........
”
Try some small companies. Preferably privately run. If they can get something for nothing, then they will be interested. I'd be surprised if an accountant would take you on voluntarily, as they will have to check everything you do. That is more time it will take them, and subsequently cost them billable hours. Have a look for any adverts that are looking for someone to cover say 6/9/12 months maternity leave. They may only be short time, but it may well be enough to get you started. AAnd if you are having trouble with the moustache, may I suggest you grow some sideburns to join it up too, a la Lemmy 
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Thanks for the advice. I've got loads of business cards but I can't use them as my Practising Cert isn't live yet as I'm in the process of renewing it, so don't want to break the rules. Got hundreds from Vistaprint - but they'll all be out of date in two weeks when I sit my level 2 manual (assuming I pass) and the letters after my name will all be wrong Grrrrrrr. Do you think I would still be allowed to use them with the wrong letters as I can't really afford any more at the moment, i don't really want to have to start crossing bits out and correcting them in biro, looks a bit cr@p
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Hi Andrea
I would not see any problem with you using up your older stocks of business cards as you are now more qualified than you once were so you are not mis representing yourself as being able to do more than you actually can infact you are under selling yourself in some respects.
However the ICB may have a different take on it.
Best regards
Stuart
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gigagirl said:
“I can't even give myself away.
hi Andrea
If you are needing experience pop along to your local community info point (I googled and found amesbury to have one at the old forge) and offer your services as Treasurer to start off with.
Very few of the voluntary group members like doing the books but it is a good way to get experience and your name known. There was an ex-banker who offered his services as a Treasurer for any group - he was inundated with requests!
It's only a few hours a month normally and of course the committee meetings to go to. It's also quite interesting from the point of view of applying for grants etc.
I was Treasurer of a Community Forum for a a few years (never willing though!) and when I finally decided to start my own practice, one of my first clients is the daughter of one of the Forum members who opened a dog grooming salon.
It also comes across well on your c.v.
I've also been a Secretary and a Chairman of other groups and have been given administration type jobs to do e.g. databases and c.v's etc.
The only thing I would mention is don't try for the charitable status groups just now as the regulations surrounding them would probably negate your offer.
Good Luck
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Thanks for that. Iwas hoping that I could still use them is i've got hundreds of them. I will speak to the people in the community shop, I hadn't thought of that, I'll keep you posted. Arranging my PII today, about £46 from Trafalgar so I didn't think that was too bad - then send off for my new practice licence which may or may not be the same number as my old one which lapsed. That could be tricky as the old cert number is on my biz cards too. Fingers crossed I get the same number back again or all my cards will be useless!!!!
Then to fix my website because it has a slight glitch - and get it back online once I have my cert back. So much to do, and so little time....
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Ami @ ICB said:
“Hello All,
It is a real pleasure to see this positive topic- thank you all for making James's work developing this Forum so worthwhile.
I just wanted to butt in and say that you can of course continue to use your old business cards which would be far preferable to amending them in pen. The problem vis a vis 'the rules' only arises when your business card quotes a higher grade than you are at.
And IMHO I think we need to look at having a Pass Plus type course or 'Training Academy' where the newly qualified can get some face to face training and advice covering all sorts of things from the ways clients try to get you to bend the rules to what to wear for the interview in the first place.
I think that might be a bit more practical than sending any of your work away for assessment. I think it would be great if we could visit each practice in their first year to assess their procedures and 'have a nice chat' etc but of course it will cost money and I think it might be harder to sell to members who will see it more as a big brother check up.
Anyway- this is one of the reasons the CIA, sorry ICB, was set up in the first place- because bookkeepers who are woorking for themselves, or comprise the whole accounts department of a small company, often don't benefit from the same sort of peer guidance that you would (hopefully) receive if you were part of a large accounts department.
BTW the newsletter is out TODAY!”
Hi I like that idea but could it be done after each level that way we could expand our knowledge in a practical way. Possible to use a years accounts and as you do each level you complete the modules/work experience possible keep them as true to life as poss and do it on line.
Thanks for this forum I love it
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