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How many times have I asked myself this same question? Gosh I do wish there was someone out there who would hold my hand and get me through this period of setting up my business.
How do I go from being a mother and employee to becoming the Admin manager, IT manager, HR manager, Customer services Manager, Marketing manager, Finance Manager and employee all rolled into one?
How on earth am I supposed to do all this and still maintain my sanity? Does any member in practice feel the same way? Would New members want someone to mentor or coach them?
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I think that's an extremely good idea Joy. I noticed in Garry's newletter, he was asking for volunteers to join working groups. Maybe this is one of those areas that can be included as part of wider discussion - how many experienced and practising members are there (in practice) who are willing to mentor/coach a newly formed member in practice? There is a working group proposed for members in practice - maybe this issue could be raised there?
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Hi all this is a difficult question.
Why would I want to mentor and coach my competition!!
If some one else wanted to set up in a self employed capacity running their own practice why would i want to help them do it so I could later on down the line compete with them for business, Also the law of supply and demand would kick in and I would have to reduce my fees to compete with the growing number of qualified bookkeepers practicing.
I think we should toughen up and perhaps consider making members have at least two years supervised practice experiance before allowing them to set up on there own as is done with the other accounting bodies. This would then enable members to gain practical work experiance before trying to set up and work with clients.
This would also ensure people who grapsed and can apply what they have learnt rather than studying to pass a test.
just my thoughts
Best regards
Stuart
Edited at 15 Feb 2011 11:41 AM GMT
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The first comment from Stuart ran through my mind when I saw the post and it has some merit.
However if you look down your High Street you will see any number of similar businesses all of which compete against each other. Poundland survive where Woolworths failed for obvious reasons.
I am currently studying at college for a teaching course. What would life be like if all of the teachers said "this guy has been doing accounts for 40 years, what good is he going to be, lets keep him out". The question as to whether or not I will be capable of starting teaching and progressing will be decided by exam, assessment and ongoing review.
Does the Institute not already have that in place by what I understand to be a very strcit examination process and continued monitoring - MLR checks, practice licence and insurance?
Yes, it is supply and demand but also the survival of the fittest. If you are not up to the
mark you will fall by the wayside.
The forum is a good mentoring area. However I certainly wouldnt want to give up my fee earning time to provide charitable services so others can benefit at my expense.
Perhaps I can see a business opportunity in offering paid for advice to those who need/want it.
Geoff Smith
www.accountslegal.co.uk
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With regards wanting to coach my competition, I don't see it that way, I would probably say its more like providing work experience and I agree with Stuart about making members gain at last 2 years work experience before setting up on their own as I think, just passing the exams alone is not enough to be able to set up a practice.
We want the profession to grow, however we want credible people out there and you will be surprised the amount of damage some bookkeepers do to their client accounts.
Whether we choose to charge for helping someone else start up in business or offer it as a free service, its up to you. For me, people I have helped kind of save me having to employ staff that I need to pay so its a win win situation as they do my work for free and I train them on becoming better bookkeepers. They are even more committed than paid staff.
Another way to look at it is, ICB exams are done on Sage but there are various other software's out there that these new members don't know how to use, so by gaining work experience, they see how Kashflow works, or VT Transactions or Quickbooks or Xero etc.
Yes I do understand they may become your competition but isn't that life. You might find a way to work together somehow if you are based in the same area.
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Not all exams are done on Sage - I did my Level III computerised accounts on Quickbooks.
So you make someone work for someone else for two years - but what if the person cannot get work? I think that might fall foul of restraint of trade laws.
And how do you police the two years? What if someone works for a family member who is quite happy to say that the newly qualified bookkeeper has done a great job - even though they may not have done so.?
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Hi Geoff
This is how the AAT, CIMA, ACCA and ICAEW all do it you can qualify by doing the exams however they will not give you a practicing certificate until certain critearia are met in relation to practical work experiance.
I agree with Joy in that there are far too many dodgy bookkeepers out there they are usually unqualified and have little experiance.
I would also like to see the ICB bring in peer reviews so that all it's memebers are kept upto the highest standards and we can maintain our place as the beacon of the bookkeeping community.
There is another bookkeeping forum which members regulary have a dig about not automatically being granted a practice licence from the ICB and being made to complete the ICB exams even though they are qulaified with other bodies, This is manily due to the fact that other bodies will not hand out practising certificates until a candidate has recieved so much work experiance post qualification.
Kind regards
Stuart
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I don't think using a mentor is important for Bookkeeping. If any one need help with setting up a bookkeeping business, the person can contact an accountant or an experienced bookkeeper for consultancy at a price
Odimabo Gede
Gedebookkeepingservices.co.uk
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Joy said:
“Yes I do understand they may become your competition but isn't that life. You might find a way to work together somehow if you are based in the same area.”
Personally I agree with your opening post. But picking up on the point above, I'd view competition as a challenge rather than a threat. It's more important to differentiate your practice on something other than price. If it's just a matter of cost, there will allways be someone cheaper.
Does the two years practical experience that's suggested refer to post qualification experience? Or would you give credit for prior experience? Would it have to be with an ICB approved training provider?
I could see it being quite costly to administer?
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Sorry Joy, I was in the same boat - family, new practice, however we are all trying to chip a living out of this, so not only is there the time issue for your mentor but also the competition issue.
Starting in Practice means, to me anyway, starting a new business and the vast majority of new businesses don't have mentors. We are fortunate in that we already have a grasp of the financials whereas most businesses only know their own expertise hence why they call us for instance. And we charge them for our time.
I found personally that the forums were ideal for picking tips up and giving tips out. That is where I would stop. Unless I was able to bill for my time as a mentor, that then becomes a different matter entirely.
There are plenty of organisations out there e.g. business gateway, FSB etc that can help in starting up and the forum is always here for a bit of advice.
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- Member PM.Dip
- Practice Licence
- 27 posts
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I feel the question of work experience is a little more tricky. I am all in favour of increasing the standards of bookkeepers, and agree thay there are far too many 'dodgy' ones that undermine those of us trying to do a good job.
However, this is a second career for me, having taken voluntary redundancy when I had a family. I did a home study course and set up as self-employed, at first working just a few hours round the kids, and taking on more clients as I felt able. It's all a juggling act, but I love the flexibility it gives me and love managing my own business.
Having to do 2 years employed to gain formal work experience goes against the reasons I chose the career in the first place and had this been a requirement, I would not have become a bookkeeper at all. Bearing in mind that there are many other people (mainly women, I guess) in the same situation, surely this would close the door for a large number of potentially very good bookkeepers?
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Hi All
Usually any time with an approved practice is taken into account so those working whilst studying have that time taken into account however this does vary for example I believe the ACCA will not grant a practicing certificate until 3 years post qualified experiance has been gained (I do stand to be corrected).
It terms of it being costly I disagree as it can be tied into your CPD logging i.e. you should be working for an approved employed I.e. some one who already has an ICB practice licence or is a registered accounting practice with say the ICAEW or ACCA etc.
I agree that we should not be putting up barriers to anyone who wishes to practice practicing however how do we ensure that those of us who are practicing maintain the and promote the excellent standards laid down by the ICB.
There is a world of difference between studying for exams and doing clients actual books and gaining that experiance is essential perhaps the way forward is some sort of mentoring scheme that is paid for by way of a new memeber levy to compensate the more experianced memebers in helping to develop those less experianced.
Warmest regards
Stuart
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The deeper this dicussion goes the greater fear I have of members being deterred.
I have been working in an accounts environment since 1967. Apart from a three month stint - which put me off for life - I have never worked in practice until I was made redundant in 1999 and decided to go freelance.
I have survived - just - and also qualified to Diploma Level III, without any help or guidance.
What would I have done if I had been required to have supervised experience? Probably have found a different vocation.
My own specialist area is Legal Accounts - hence authoring the Level III Diploma in Legal Bookkeeping course which is imminent.
Having worked in the legal profession since 1979 I can say categorically that I have, on the basis of those I have met who are qualified to sign off the annual SAR audit - far more in depth knowledge of legal accounts. That knowledge extends way beyond the boxes of Sage et al - which do not work for legal accounting - into a much wider range of software.
So what would I have gained by being required to have supervision? Not a lot in my view.
I found it quite onerous when I qualified a couple of years back - application fees, examination fees, practice licence fees, indemnity insurance. I was working for a few days for nothing - just like you do at the start of each financial year to pay the taxman!
I certainly wouldn't have been happy if I had been forced to pay a mentoring fee. I didn't need mentoring.
Let's leave it as it is. For those who want to pay for support it should be voluntary, for those who dont it is on their own heads to make sure that their work is up to a good enough standard and that they have all safeguards in place.
And from the ICB direction a higher profile of CPD opportunities.
All in my opinion of course, no doubt others will disagree.
Hopefully this idea will not run ad infinitum.
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Hi Geoff
I welcome and respect your opinions as you have always been a very knoweldgable and supprtive member of this forum.
This is no way is being discussed or thought about by the ICB this is simply my humble opinion. I hope that no-one would be put of the ICB from this discussion but welcome an instute and its memebers that can have a robust exchange of views without resulting to falling out and all that entails.
I agree Geoff some people can jog along nicely all that worries me is that the likes of you me and the vast majority of our colleagues in the ICB do not get tarred with a brush through no fault of our own as less able people who may have required a little more coaching slip through the net.
This is an interesting topic that should be dicussed i.e. how do we the membership ensure that the highest standards are maintained and therefore the profile of our institute is raised.
I agree a one size fits all option is not always a good thing but how do we ensure no-one tarnishes the image of ICB bookkeepers without resulting to closing the stable door when the horse has bolted.
I welcome any thoughts
Cheers
Stuart
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Hi Stuart
Nothing wrong with healthy debate - and of course we have since spoken!
It occurred to me after our conversation that an option may be by way of controlled verification/assessment.
When I joined the ICB I did so via the entrance paper - the one which requires 100% pass mark. As part of the application process I was required to provide two references from qualified accountants.
I am presuming - although may be wrong - that the same criteria does not apply for those who take the examination route.
If that is the case why could we not adopt a system whereby each year for say the first three years a member in practice is required to provide a summary of the work that they have undertaken, the clients that they have worked for and a verification by the accountant of that client to confirm that the work has been undertaken and to a satisfactory standard?
Certainly on that basis I would have been covered for many years of verification when going freelance.
This covers the standards issue - the mentoring is, I feel, down to the willingness of the member to pay for that, either directly or by way of paid for CPD seminars.
Of course it is probably tax deductible!
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- Member PM.Dip
- Practice Licence
- 9 posts
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Hi, Having just looked at the AAT website regarding members in practise the following may be useful:
I'm an AAT student member - can I be a MIP?
While you are studying for your AAT qualification, you can set up in practice.
However, certain restrictions apply until you become a full member:
- You may not advertise in connection with the AAT.
- You must only undertake work within your competence and seek professional advice where necessary.
- You must abide by the our Guidelines on Professional Ethics.
- You are strongly advised to take out professional indemnity insurance.
The above suggests that an AAT student can perform work within their competence seeking advice where necessary. Looking at the yellow pages etc, there are lots of bookkeepers advertising who are not AAT or ICB members. I personally feel that the ICB should be opening it's doors to welcome people who want to train and qualify and work for themselves. The exam process may not be perfect, it is far better that bookkeepers aim to pass exams and show the ability to understand the concepts and skills required, than students (or any member of the public) advertising their services as a member in practise, without the incentive to progress their learning.
Bookkeeping has many levels of skills. It seems appropriate that the more exams you pass, the more services you can offer. Spot on.
Also there are personal circumstances that play a factor. Some bookkeepers perform straight forward tasks such as double entry bookkeeping on a part-time basis, maybe for one or two private clients, earning a little extra money for the children, would they really need annual references from an accountant?
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Just on the final point in Michael's post - I had a telephone call earlier in the week from a lady asking my advice.
She said that the work she was doing was for a friend on an unpaid basis. The work was clearly not undertaken in the role of a volunteer.
She claimed to be a member of a regulated body but did not know which, she did not know anything about professional indemnity insurance or a practice licence - she was clearly holding herself out to be an accountancy service provider yet was unaware of the 2008 regulations.
The questions she was seeking advice on were so obscure that I had difficulty in understanding what her problem was.
Let's assume this lady became a student and qualified at the lower tier. What damage to the reputation of the ICB could this one person do by taking on work which she was not qualified to do? After all she clearly thinks that it is ok to do that now.
I gave her advice - find out who her regulatory body were (if indeed she was a member) and seek their advice.
I also provided the Institute with her mobile number, her first name and her geographical location (she had found me through a google search on my web site which has search tracking).
How many others like this are out there?
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I agree that having experience and qualifications make a good combination for setting up on your own but getting that experience in todays job market is very difficullt. I believe (correct me if I am wrong) that there are more opportunities for, partly qualified or just qualified accountants, than for bookkeepers. Most companies today use recruitment agencies to adverise their jobs and the latter will usually stipulate that experience is necessary. Your CV will probably not even reach the selction point, if you have no experience, so for those without it, it is a catch 22 situation. Perhaps the ICB could restrict you to having to have qualifications at Level III before you could set up on your own but not sure if this would be popular. The ICB are very good at answering any technical questions we may have and in that sense we do have a mentor. It could be very difficult to decide who to pay to be your mentor, as it would depend on their experience.
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- Member PM.Dip
- Practice Licence
- 58 posts
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I have been in practice for a year and a half. As part qualified ACCA I thought I would join ICB to help demonstrate to my clients that I was suitably qualified. I passed the entrance exams plus payroll and Self assessment papers and had to provide proof of prior qualifications and provide references from two qualified accountants, which was not a problem. I have over 25 years experience in industry at a senior level and thought provding all of this 'proof of competency' had helped me gain the practice licence without much difficulty.
However after reading this discussion, I am a little concerned that newly qualified members can set up in practice without any practcal experience whatsoever, and are possibly indistinguishable from those who have. I had hoped that being a member of ICB would offer the prospective client some sort of comfort that the I had suitable experience to carry out their requirements. Now I am not so sure.
At the end of the day everyone has to start somehere, but life is all about gaining experience. If you can't find employment because of lack of experience what right does anyone have to expect a paying client to expect less.
I'm sorry I don't have the answer, to the two year experience rule after all I wouldn;t have been happy for it to have applied to me. I think if I was a potential client I would want to know mush experience the person I was trusting with my financial information had. I guess it's like everything else in life - buyer beware, there are dodgy 'tradesmen' in every profession. Its a shame they can also belong to a 'professional' body.
I have clients who's previosu 'so called' book keepers (usually AAT) have been totally out of their depth in a SME environment. And finally if a mentor is required perhaps the member is not ready for setting up a practice.
Edited at 18 Feb 2011 05:14 PM GMT
Edited at 18 Feb 2011 05:15 PM GMT
Edited at 18 Feb 2011 05:17 PM GMT
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- Companion Fellow PM.Dip
- Practice Licence
- 1137 posts
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annepebo said:
“
I have been in practice for a year and a half. As part qualified ACCA I thought I would join ICB to help demonstrate to my clients that I was suitably qualified. I passed the entrance exams plus payroll and Self assessment papers and had to provide proof of prior qualifications and provide references from two qualified accountants, which was not a problem. I have over 25 years experience in industry at a senior level and thought provding all of this 'proof of competency' had helped me gain the practice licence without much difficulty.
However after reading this discussion, I am a little concerned that newly qualified members can set up in practice without any practcal experience whatsoever, and are possibly indistinguishable from those who have. I had hoped that being a member of ICB would offer the prospective client some sort of comfort that the I had suitable experience to carry out their requirements. Now I am not so sure.
Firstly Joy, what a really good discussion you have opened up.
Hi as a fellow I agree with a lot Anne P says, even on this forum I have to question some of the work that some people are taking on. I think the ICB needs to implement the rules about the level each Membership is allowed to do, and I welcome Ami's flowchart but I think the ICB need to implement it.
I have come across some members in my time and have been quite surprised that they had been given membership as they had little or no real experience.
I actually do agree with Stuart a lot . I have been in accounts and bookkeeping all my life and the experience I have gained from choosing to work under 3 chartered accountants over the years was invaluable as well as working in industry. I am still always trying to learn from good and nice accountants that I work with where there is mutual respect for my work as well.
This is my personal view, and I sure there will be some that disagree with me but I think you if take on work that you are not capable of . That is dishonest, if you have not told the client when you are taking on the work . If you need to learn then that is what you should do before you provide the service. I have been very open that I budget for my training each year.
I have no problem telling any of my clients when I would like an accountant to work along side me, if I feel it is needed, and have done so many times.
To sum it up I think you should have 2 years experience before you get a practice cert that can be verified and signed off. Completing exams is very different to experience. The Practice Cert will become meaningless and I have to agree with Anne P. There is no point in letting any Tom Dick or Harry have a practice cert without experience because sooner of later the practice cert will become worthless.
I would have never wanted a doctor operating on me if they had no experience. which is why I always let student doctors sit in. Anne the only thing I slightly disagree with you on is that you maybe should,nt be in practice if you need a mentor, I think it can be good think as you should always be open to new ideas.
Stuart whilst you say the ICB has not discussed this I think they should. I have always said I would like to help students and members in anyway I can and I am a big believer in always learning from others and helping those that are coming up the chain as it good for the ICB. I don,t really have worries about helping or receiving guidance as I am happy to run my own practice and I have received an awful lot of very good guidance along the way from people who did not need to help me.
Edited at 18 Feb 2011 10:35 PM GMT
Edited at 19 Feb 2011 09:31 AM GMT
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Hi
I can appreciate the views of the people who have work experience, about being on the same level as someone who hasn't, with regard to having a practice licence but experience varies from person to person. If, for example, someone working for a sole trader for 5 years, had been doing just manual bookkeeping and then sat the ICB manual, computerised and payroll exams and set up in business on their own. Would they have to turn away clients who use computerised systems or wanted them to do payroll or limited companies or partnerships, because they don't have work experience in these areas?
It is a difficult problem to address and, as before, most companies do not do their own recruiting anymore and no experience will usually mean not even an interview. There are very few professions or jobs in general, that take on trainees anymore and therefore, give newly qualified people the chance to say why they should get the job. Ideally there should be a trainee scheme for bookkeepers, in the same way that it is an accepted part of their professions, to have trainee schemes for accountants and doctors.
I am making people aware of my lack of work experience and say that I have the support of the ICB for any problems but asking for help would be relevant to anyone who didn't have the right work experience.
Moira
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Having over 30 years experience in accounting both sales ledger/Purchase ledger/Credit Controller & payroll, i find it very scary that you have students who have not worked in this kind of area, suddenly take on a Bookkeeping course & suddenly they are taking on work for friends etc & looking to set their own business up. I'm with Stuart there must be some control over these people who will put Bookkeepers in disrepute.
Linda
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- Companion Fellow PM.Dip
- Practice Licence
- 1137 posts
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Hi Moria
I think some of the points you have raised are very valid. I know it is very difficult to get experience but that where maybe the ICB could help . For example I think that is why Joy started this thread . It is up to us to look after our ICB and it is to our benefit as members to encourage and help other members to learn and keep the high standards that our required.
I am concerned that admitting that you might or could benefit from someone else,s knowledge is seen as a weakness. The day I stop learning is the day I dont want to do this anymore.
Perhaps for example in the two years experience , if it was seen that a member did not have the experience of a area, the fellows and the members who would like to, could help this future member in that area through their experience.
My view is that all business experience adds to the value to your knowledge. For example I started out as catering assistant during the recession when I came out of college, actually pot washer and the Head Chief in Guildford for a large catering firm thought me how to cost up meals, purchase meat and everything at the right price , run the accounts for the tills and the vending machines, this experience has always been invaluable to me when I am dealing with clients . He also gave me my first proper role completing accounts, to this day I still remember him as an amazing role model when I was 19. In the jewellery business I learned how to cost selling gold which is less obvious then it sounds but received great knowledge from an Irish CA about running stock systems and costing and organising freight.
What I am trying to say I would also consider good solid business experience that involves figures, that benefits to been a good bookkeeper.
Edited at 19 Feb 2011 12:03 PM GMT
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Hi
Perhaps the ICB could issue your initial Practice Licence with the provision that, you would have to submit a selection of your work at various times to be assessed e.g. once a month over a 2 year period, to make sure you are providing an acceptable standard of work. This should also appy to those with experience since, as before, experience can vary.
As I said, I agree that qualifications and experience are a good combination but the job market is a different place from 30 years ago and getting experience is even harder than it used to be and again perphaps we need a system that allows for trainee bookkeepers.
If an assessment process was too big a project for the ICB, on its own, then perhaps they could ask accountancy practices to be part of the accreditation process and vet them to be approved assessors. The cost could be included in your Practice Licence or if it was too large, then perhaps it could be paid up over the 2 years? I am not against the idea that there should be certain standards throughout the profession but we need to find a way to allow everyone a chance to achieve that standard and therefore give clients more confidence in our qualifications and abilities.
Moira
Edited at 19 Feb 2011 12:27 PM GMT
Edited at 19 Feb 2011 12:29 PM GMT
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Hi Sarah
I agree that other job experiences and people skills, along with your qualifications, could also lend themselves to making a good bookkeeper and I guess that the combination, may determine whether your clients stayed with you or not.
I also agree that, saying I would ask for help from the ICB, could be seen as a weakness but I was hoping that, since I don't have any experience, then it may be seen that I would want to do the work correctly.
Moira
Edited at 19 Feb 2011 01:12 PM GMT
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- Companion Fellow PM.Dip
- Practice Licence
- 1137 posts
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Hi Moria
When I was referring to weakest. I was meaning everyone . I am totally with you on asking which is what I meant by having a mentor or someone to ask. This is a good thing and not a weakness .
Even if you are fellow , there are times that I want to ask for others views and help, for example on the CIS which Martyn asked the question about CIS. I think Martyn did exactly the right thing when she asked the question, in the thread Liz D put some really good points across and I tried to guide Marytn as well. What we achieved was the ICB covering the area in the next newsletter, if Martyn had not asked the question, then this would have not been covered. I found the article extremely useful and very helpful.
What I was concerned about was, that if you used a mentor for what ever reason, which I have done it is seen as if you are not capable . Which is not case. It is as you have mention about learning and completing a job correctly.
Edited at 19 Feb 2011 01:33 PM GMT
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- Companion Fellow PM.Dip
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- 1137 posts
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MEH said:
“Hi
Perhaps the ICB could issue your initial Practice Licence with the provision that, you would have to submit a selection of your work at various times to be assessed e.g. once a month over a 2 year period, to make sure you are providing an acceptable standard of work. This should also appy to those with experience since, as before, experience can vary.
If an assessment process was too big a project for the ICB, on its own, then perhaps they could ask accountancy practices to be part of the accreditation process and vet them to be approved assessors. The cost could be included in your Practice Licence or if it was too large, then perhaps it could be paid up over the 2 years? I am not against the idea that there should be certain standards throughout the profession but we need to find a way to allow everyone a chance to achieve that standard and therefore give clients more confidence in our qualifications and abilities.
Moira
Moria
I actually think both these ideas are excellent and should be brought into a discussion if the ICB does choose to look at this area. I do not want to put people off but like any other qualification. If we as a body lose the respect as Stuart has mentioned then it is not good for any of us. So the more ideas and thoughts on this subject the better and we really need to find away that we help members like yourself that want to do it correctly.
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Linda said:
“Having over 30 years experience in accounting both sales ledger/Purchase ledger/Credit Controller & payroll, i find it very scary that you have students who have not worked in this kind of area, suddenly take on a Bookkeeping course & suddenly they are taking on work for friends etc & looking to set their own business up. I'm with Stuart there must be some control over these people who will put Bookkeepers in disrepute.
Linda ”
I've been mulling this one over for a while now......and couldn't put my finger on what was niggling me.
Although there is the part of me that agrees with Linda and Stuart, I can't help but stray the other way.
The practice licence allows you to buy prof indem.
Are we not therefore in a position, that if the previous bookkeeper who has made a dog's dinner of the books and is a member (or associate) of a prof body, we can report them and help our new client through the legalities?
There are plenty of bookkeepers out there who are not 'qualified', do not hold a practice licence and do not have prof. indem.
Having spoken to a few of my own clients, it made no difference to them that I was qualified, I was even asked by one - why bother?
Answer: because I want prof indem. I want to do things properly - MLR etc.
Could I have gone out to the market without the ICB?
Answer: yes, of course.
It does worry me on behalf of all SMEs that only one of my clients has asked for my CV, (but they didnt ask for my practice licence etc etc).
There is a lack of understanding out in the market place of what SMEs should seek in a bookkeeper.
I've just turned down a payroll client as although I ran payroll for several years I am not covered by prof indem or practice licence. I can do payroll standing on my head, the client knows that (word of mouth) but I will not risk it.
I also turned down a request for me to do Final Accounts for a Limited and that was before I even came across the ICB. Not because I couldn't do it but I've 'been brought up properly by a CA'.
I recently had to inform a CA that 'thank you for your faith in my ability, but I am not qualified to do adjustments or draft accounts for a limited'
SME's and the rest of the accounting world need to wise up and members of the ICB need to stop worrying about being brought into disrepute.
We had a discussion about shoddy work from accountants - it hasnt brought CIMA, AAT, etc into disrepute. It's given that accountant a bad name and that's all.
Or have I got entirely the wrong end of the stick about all of this (as ususal)?
 Liz Dawson
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Meant to say - loving this discussion, even if we have strayed - really makes you think, doesn't it?
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- Companion Fellow PM.Dip
- Practice Licence
- 1137 posts
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Liz D said:
“
Are we not therefore in a position, that if the previous bookkeeper who has made a dog's dinner of the books and is a member (or associate) of a prof body, we can report them and help our new client through the legalities?
There are plenty of bookkeepers out there who are not 'qualified', do not hold a practice licence and do not have prof. indem.
Having spoken to a few of my own clients, it made no difference to them that I was qualified, I was even asked by one - why bother?
Answer: because I want prof indem. I want to do things properly - MLR etc.
Could I have gone out to the market without the ICB?
Answer: yes, of course.
It does worry me on behalf of all SMEs that only one of my clients has asked for my CV, (but they didnt ask for my practice licence etc etc).
There is a lack of understanding out in the market place of what SMEs should seek in a bookkeeper.
I've just turned down a payroll client as although I ran payroll for several years I am not covered by prof indem or practice licence. I can do payroll standing on my head, the client knows that (word of mouth) but I will not risk it.
I also turned down a request for me to do Final Accounts for a Limited and that was before I even came across the ICB. Not because I couldn't do it but I've 'been brought up properly by a CA'.
I recently had to inform a CA that 'thank you for your faith in my ability, but I am not qualified to do adjustments or draft accounts for a limited'
SME's and the rest of the accounting world need to wise up and members of the ICB need to stop worrying about being brought into disrepute.
We had a discussion about shoddy work from accountants - it hasnt brought CIMA, AAT, etc into disrepute. It's given that accountant a bad name and that's all.
Or have I got entirely the wrong end of the stick about all of this (as ususal)?
Liz Dawson
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Hi Liz
I pretty much agree with most of comments here, but do thing having the qualification as made a difference to my business everyone of clients saw my advert under the logo of the ICB and all said that is why they contacted me in the first place.
I always tell clients my experience, but yes I don,t know one of my clients who rang another client , even though the offer was there to check me out.
Times are really hard for clients at the moment , its probably my personality but I cant sleep if I thought the information I gave was incorrect. Other then that I am usually a very relaxed person.
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Hi
I just wanted to add something to this discuss, I have been training for 3 years and not all with the ICB. I have found that there is a gap from training to putting your training into practice.
I live in a rual area, there are two towns close by filled with accountants i thought at least one of them might take me on and help and guide me, no chance, one i wasnt young enough, and two they said i wouldnt be able to be taught the way they like things to be done. i havent got the experience but i am one of these people who would prefer to have someone looking over my shoulder helping me get it right first time. because it is very hard for people like me, who find it hard getting the experience. I spoke to an accountant just recently and i asked him, what is better, qualifications or experience and he said the qualifications means nothing but experience will get you the job!
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chrissy said:
“Hi
I just wanted to add something to this discuss, I have been training for 3 years and not all with the ICB. I have found that there is a gap from training to putting your training into practice.
I live in a rual area, there are two towns close by filled with accountants i thought at least one of them might take me on and help and guide me, no chance, one i wasnt young enough, and two they said i wouldnt be able to be taught the way they like things to be done. i havent got the experience but i am one of these people who would prefer to have someone looking over my shoulder helping me get it right first time. because it is very hard for people like me, who find it hard getting the experience. I spoke to an accountant just recently and i asked him, what is better, qualifications or experience and he said the qualifications means nothing but experience will get you the job!
”
Chrissy - have you tried for administrator type jobs - nine times out of ten these carry with them the need for bookkeeping knowledge but you are under the umbrella of the company. The thing about bookkeeping is that you dont need to work for an accountants as often they are not seeing the whole picture....
Even try 'volunteering' your time as one ICB member did for a building company.
Liz D
Liz
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Hi Liz,
Thank you for that, yeah not so much admin, but i have tried for other position where book keeping is required. I would much prefer to be within a company that can offer me the experience i need. I will look out for admin jobs in the future tho.
chrissy
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Hello All,
Sorry I have been away since my "controversial" question. It appears this is one of those questions we have to decide what we as an Institute would like to do. I feel members who have been in practice should consider how we can help our newly qualified members gain the experience they require. Perhaps also the Institute could consider running workshops that would simulate real life experience for members to attend and that would count as working towards gaining experience for those that are unable to find employers that are open to giving them a chance.
Again, I am open to hear your views on this.
Joy
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