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Bookkeeper or Accountant ?

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  • # 103642

Hi All

Does anyone know if the practicing ICB members can call themselves an Accountant rather than a Bookkeeper ?  I read somewhere that there was no restriction to calling yourself an accountant . Is this true ? Thanks.

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  • # 103645

Technically you are correct but I would suggest that to call oneself an accountant when one is not is deliberately misleading.

When asked, the majority of people assume that a person described as an accountant is a member of one of the CCAB, and will be either chartered or certified.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_qualified_accountants.

May I draw your attention to the section on Bookkeepers and Accounting Technicians where it clearly states that  'Individuals with such [bookkeeping] qualifications are referred to as bookkeepers, and are not recognised as professionally qualified accountants'.

In the end it is down to the individual, but I would have thought that going into business with a deliberatly misleading description of ones skillset and abilities is a receipe for mistrust, failed expectation and damaged reputaion.

This is just my view, others will no doubt think differently.  If you want to ask a mixed array of bookkeepers, accountants and other financial professionals then might I suggest reposting on The Book-keepers Forum? http://www.book-keepers.org.uk/

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  • # 103646

Can I draw your attention to the professional conduct regulations, and in particular 21b:

21. A member must not whether in his employment or in connection to his supply of services to the public describe himself or allow himself to be described as:

b)    being an accountant unless he is currently entitled to be so described through his membership of an accountancy body 

Therefore, while you are correct that accountant is not a protected term, in terms of the professional regulations of the institute it's a no go I'm afraid.

Regards

Kris

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  • # 103647

This is a very interesting question - I believe anybody can call themselves an accountant - like they can call themselves a bookkeeper. What you cant call youreself is a Chartered Accountant, Certified Accountant, Chartered Certified Accountant etc or undertake any work that only an appropriate qualified person can undertake. I trained as a butcher when I left school, but it does not make me a brain surgeon !!!

Some people ponder the term that describes their work ie bookkeeping or accountancy service. I know a number of AAT (MAAT) qualified people call themselves Accountants.

Regards

Trevor

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  • # 103648

PS -Bik .. I see your business is called TaxSava Accountancy and Bookkeeping Services. I cant see on your website - how you save anyone Tax, as you dont seem to offer a tax service and you offer an accountancy and bookkeeping service. Can you please tell me what the difference is between the two services you offer ?

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  • # 103663

Trevor

Firstly, let me clarify few points. The name is " TAXSAVA" not "TAXSAVE". Secondly, I don't see much difference between the 2 ( Accountancy & Bookkeeping ) however, I feel bookkeeping is part of the accountancy service. What you may not know is that I have also passed my SA Tax Return ( there should be some kind of lettering, after our name, that we should be able to use to reflect this) so, am allowed to do Tax Returns for clients. As you may know there are various expenses that you can claim eg Allowances, motor expenses, working from home etc... surely this would save ( or reduce ) tax.

Now, coming to the word "accountant " I would agree with you that we can't call our selves chartered, certified etc.. nor use any lettering after the name. As you rightly say, some AAT (MAAT ) use the word accountants to describe themselves, are they correct ?

Coming to Theresa's post, some clients don't understand that bookkeeper's are allowed to do Tax Returns ( or even the PL accounts), so assume we are accountants ( although we are not claiming to be accountants ) because the service of PL accounts ( sole traders ) and Tax Returns are associated with accountants. If we are allowed to offer them these services and they want to call as accountants, are we really mis-leading them ?




Edited at 12 Jan 2015 12:08 PM GMT

Edited at 12 Jan 2015 12:09 PM GMT

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  • # 103664

I would suggest that to call yourself an accountant you should have a qualification recognised by the main accountancy bodies. ACCA provide a Certified Accountant qualification which is part way to Chartered status, also the OU provide a Certified qualification which is recognised by ACCA, CIMA and most other professional bodies.

Eb

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  • # 103671

Hi Bik

 

There's a difference between the client calling you an accountant - your last comment - and you caling yourself an acountant - as in your initial comment.  Having worked as a Management Accountant QBE in corporate prior to going selfemployed as a bookkeeper I am always being called an accountant by clients.  However I correct them and state I'm a bookkeeper. 

 

I agree withTheresa's comment that if you plan to mislead clients from the start by calling yourself an accountant their not going to trust you long term. 

I don't believe in calling myself something i'm not and as per Kris's comment neither does the ICB.  It is up to us to educate others that bookkeepers can do tax returns if qualified. 

Liz

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  • # 103674

Lizzie59

First of all let me correct you, there is no where, I call myself an accountant. You said you was a Management Accountant, was this a job title or are you a qualified accountant ? If you are a qualified accountant then why would you need to correct your clients and say that you are a bookkeeper ?

Accounting-4, you said you classify yourself as certified accountant, how was this certification achieved ? I would be interested in the shortest route to achieve this ?

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  • # 103676

Hi Sharon

Does level4 AAT actually give you a certified accountant status ? What letters you use MAAT ? is this level 4 equavalent to the ICB level 3 ? Thanks.

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  • # 103677

Bik said:

Lizzie59

First of all let me correct you, there is no where, I call myself an accountant. You said you was a Management Accountant, was this a job title or are you a qualified accountant ? If you are a qualified accountant then why would you need to correct your clients and say that you are a bookkeeper ?

Accounting-4, you said you classify yourself as certified accountant, how was this certification achieved ? I would be interested in the shortest route to achieve this ?


Hi Bik,

Liz said she was a Management Accountant QBE - QBE means qualified by experience. It is not an exam qualification, hense she is a bookkeeper, not an accountant. (A very experienced one though :))

You implied in your first post that you felt you could be called an accountant as the title is not restricted and in one of your later posts, that clients called you an accountant. Could I please just clarify - are you wanting to call yourself an accountant because you see little difference between the two jobs or because the general public don't know the difference and you think it would be simpler for them?

There are six of us saying in various ways that this would not be a good idea, on very many levels, and I would like to understand your reasoning for wanting the title.  

The role of a bookkeeper is really quite different to that of an accountant. If you go back to the Victorian times when the term 'Accountant' was coined as a job, seperate from 'Bookkeeper' the specific aim was for a class of financial professional whos skills went well beyond bookkeeping and was particularly aimed at those working in the newly formed multi-national companies that sprung into being with the expansion of the empire.  This is why, historically, the production of coporate returns, amongst others, is an accounting skill rather than a bookkeeping one.

Bookkeeping has to do with the nitty gritty, day to day and month to month accuracy and consistancy of a businesses financial records, accountants take those records and produce reports and financial statements which describe the business in other ways, projecting ideas forwards and flavouring the past with hindsight.  They work within a set of rules that gives consistancy of treatment to make such reports comparable beween businesses, but with all due respect - many of the accountants I have met don't worry too much about the original accuracy of the books. They have a 'close enough' attitude which I personally detest!

Which explains why I am a bookkeeper and proud of it - but also, I hope, explains why it would be unwise for you to claim the name without the qualifications or experience.

As to the fastest route to chartered - good question. Given the rules on 'relevant experience', you might, if you are working for an accountant who will be prepared to mentor you, be able to get there in around 5 years.  Rule 8 for ACCA requires that sort of time frame.

I don't know how the other accountancy bodies do things - might be a bit faster if you go the IFA route...

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  • # 103680

Hi Theresa

Thank you for the detailed explanation. The general public's perception of a bookkeeper  is someone who looks after the day to day books but can't do the final accounts or Tax Return. They think if you do the final accounts then you must be an accountant. I think the accountants have more credibility than the bookkeepers ( with all due respect to the bookkeepers). I would personally look to gain further qualifications in order to obtain the Accountant status and  am fully aware I am not an accountant at the moment. Would you say AAT level 4 qualifications would give a certified Accountant status ?

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  • # 103682

Hi Bik,

The AAT site is a little unclear...  the 'course finder' describes lv4 AAT as a platfrom from which to study for certified status - so I guess - not directly.

I think that the issue will, as with ACCA, be 'relevent experience'.  You need Sharon for this one.  I have a couple of MAAT friends locally, I seen to remember they had to have several years of work signed off before they got their MAAT status - which I am assuming, because of the work they do and what Sharon has said, is a certified accountant level.  But just how many years, and if bookkeeping work is 'relevent' or if you have to be in full employment as with ACCA, I just don't know.

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  • # 103685

I don't see that it makes that much of a diffference whether you call yourself a book-keeper or an acountant I guess it is down to the way you do your marketing.

I'll be targetting not for profits once I have my level 3 and practice license and I shall not be marketing book-keeping or accountancy but financial serivces and support.

So my list of serivces will include general financial record keeping and end of year accounts etc. 

There's no real need to declare myself either as a book-keeper or an accountant what I'm doing is selling vaious financial services.

Sell your service not your title. 

 

Kevin

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  • # 103689

I can understand your confusion Bik.  It's the reason many of us (including yourself) use the term accountancy in their title to represnt that they do bookkkeeping+.  There is a difference in doing this and actually calling yourself (or allowing others to call you) an accountant.

Kevin, ICB disagree with you and if you practice under their license with their membership you'll need to abide by their rules.  The alternative is don't become a member. 

I do agree with Kevin that the answer can be found in the marketing of your business.  It's up to us to let cleints and potential clients know what we can do for their businesses.

Kris

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  • # 103690

kjmcculloch said:

Kevin, ICB disagree with you and if you practice under their license with their membership you'll need to abide by their rules.  The alternative is don't become a member. 

 


 I'm not sure what rule I will be breaking if I market financial support and services to not-for-profits.

I would appreaciate a link to the rule that stops me from marketing my services as that will save me a lot of moeny and time in studying for the ICB membership.

thanks

Kevin



Edited at 13 Jan 2015 02:29 PM GMT

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  • # 103691

Hi 

I am writing this as my Moderator role.  I would like to inform members that Kris McCulloch is right and has given clear advice.  

Under ICB Practice rules stated below it states very clearly that under your membership you can not call yourselves an accountant if you are not qualified.  If you do under the Professional Conduct rules you will lose your practice licence. 

To break this rule means you are breaking the Professional Conduct rules and your practice licence are membership can be removed from you after a disciplinary hearing.  I have attached the link.  If any members are concerned pleased contact member services at the ICB. 

 

Conduct regulations applying to members, students, and employees of ICB Practices in their professional & business activities, both paid & voluntary.

21. A member must not whether in his employment or in connection to his supply of services to the public describe himself or allow himself to be described as:

a)    holding any designation or qualification he does not currently hold or being a member of any professional body he is not currently a member of 

b)    being an accountant unless he is currently entitled to be so described through his membership of an accountancy body 

c)    being a Certified Bookkeeper unless he is currently entitled to through his belonging to the appropriate grade of membership of the Institute.

22. A member must undertake a programme of planned Continuing Professional Development every year and provide to the Institute a record of the Continuing Professional Development undertaken by him during the calendar year by the 31st January of the following year.

23. Subject to the other requirements of these rules, a member must always act in the interests of his client or employer.



Edited at 13 Jan 2015 03:10 PM GMT

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KevinHeath said:

I don't see that it makes that much of a diffference whether you call yourself a book-keeper or an acountant I guess it is down to the way you do your marketing.

I'll be targetting not for profits once I have my level 3 and practice license and I shall not be marketing book-keeping or accountancy but financial serivces and support.

So my list of serivces will include general financial record keeping and end of year accounts etc. 

There's no real need to declare myself either as a book-keeper or an accountant what I'm doing is selling vaious financial services.

Sell your service not your title. 

 

Kevin


 I'm not sure what rule I will be breaking if I market financial support and services to not-for-profits.

I would appreaciate a link to the rule that stops me from marketing my services as that will save me a lot of moeny and time in studying for the ICB membership.

thanks

Kevin



Edited at 13 Jan 2015 02:29 PM GMT

Hi Kevin,

The main rule you would be in danger of breaking as a Lv3 AICB is that you would not be qualified to do final accounts for limited companies, be they not-for-profit, charity or money making!

This is a link for the old list of what we can do - the only change as far as I am aware is that a new sylibus AICB can complete partnership returns, an old style one will need to take the partnership exam to add this skill.  Also, payroll and SA Tax are add-on exams any time after completing your main AICB levels.

http://www.bookkeepers.org.uk/out/51493/Membership%20Structure%20Arrow

As to not declaring yourself as either an accountant or a bookkeeper - having gone to the effort of getting the qualifications, why wouldn't you use them? Put AICB on your business card once you have the certificate!  Letters after your name can help!

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  • # 103710

A very interesting discussion that seems to have identified a missing or unknown level of qualification. 

Something that sits between a bookkeeper preparing draft FSs and the titans of the chartered world dealing with PLCs, insolvency, international law and audit.

A qualification that allows accounting for companies identified by FRSSE but without the added years of training require by ACA et al.

Eb

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  • # 103727

I feel the need to throw in my 2p.

I am AICB and have been for 5 years (although I will be upgrading to level IV by exemption when my renewal comes round).

I am a student member of ACCA and have completed 9 exams with only 5 professional papers to go.  I am 24 months into my 36 months full-time work experience, and have completed some of the Practical Experience Requirements of which I need to demonstrate competence in 9 out of 13 requirements.  Each of my exams including tuition, cost around £600 which I am paying for myself.

Given my level of knowledge and experience my clients do try and call me an accountant and I correct them every single time.  Having seen the depth of learning and knowledge required to qualify as an accountant, I would not dream of holding myself out to be such, until I have that piece of paper in my hand.

For unqualified people to tell potential customers that they are "Accountants" frightens and annoys me.

Just my opinion, but if you want the title, pay the money, do the study, make the sacrifices required to earn it.

Rant over

Andrea

xx

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  • # 103751

I agree with eb, we could do with something in the middle.

Am I  right in thinking that as a self employed bookkeepers we cannot gain ACCA status because we are not working  under a chartered accountant to gain the relevant experience. 



Edited at 15 Jan 2015 07:53 PM GMT

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  • # 103760

Bik said:

I agree with eb, we could do with something in the middle.

Am I  right in thinking that as a self employed bookkeepers we cannot gain ACCA status because we are not working  under a chartered accountant to gain the relevant experience. 



Edited at 15 Jan 2015 07:53 PM GMT

 That is correct.

When you sign up as a student member of ACCA, you are instantly not allowed to offer "regulated" services to clients: VAT returns, payroll, self-assessment, accounts etc. even though you may be qualified with ICB (as I am) you cannot undertake this work without supervision.

The work experience requirements are that you need 36 months full-time experience in an accounting role (longer if working part-time) and you must have a training supervisor who is suitably qualified to sign off your specific requirements.  These work placements are available but competition for the few placements available is fierce.

Once you have completed all of these requirements, you have to undertake 2 years of further development before you are able to apply for a PL.

Further information available at www.accaglobal.com

Hope this helps.

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  • # 103771

Bik,

 

Why not try contacting all of the accounting bodies directly and ask them about exemptions etc, ACCA aren't the only ones, think there's a couple.

 

atb

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  • # 103777

Bik

Apply to join the ICPA which is an accountancy body for professionals qualified by experience. 

If your application is successful, you are entitled to use the phrase: "Certified Practising Accountant".

http://www.icpa.org.uk/

Have a look at the website it tells you all about the features, benefits and costs of being a member. I joined 12 years years ago and have never looked back Laughing

Problem solved.



Edited at 17 Jan 2015 11:59 AM GMT

Edited at 17 Jan 2015 05:07 PM GMT

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  • # 103781

There is also the Institute of Financial Accountants:

http://www.ifa.org.uk/

Who, interestingly, up until 1966, were called Institute of Book-keepers Smile



Edited at 17 Jan 2015 05:01 PM GMT

Edited at 17 Jan 2015 05:07 PM GMT

Edited at 17 Jan 2015 05:21 PM GMT

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  • # 103886

Philco 

Thanks for the advice. That sounds interesting. 

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Hi Philco 

Had a look at the icpa website. Not too clear about the membership criteria. Will they accept a practicing bookkeeper as a member or do we need any  additional qualifications? 

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Ebeneezer said:

A very interesting discussion that seems to have identified a missing or unknown level of qualification. 

Something that sits between a bookkeeper preparing draft FSs and the titans of the chartered world dealing with PLCs, insolvency, international law and audit.

A qualification that allows accounting for companies identified by FRSSE but without the added years of training require by ACA et al.

Eb


 but don't we already have that with ICB's financial manager qualification? I asked a question about it on another thread and Jacquie Mount replied;

 

Jacquie said:

Dear Carol

Of the four available units the Drafting Financial Standards unit will cover how to prepare final accounts for a limited company to a state that is ready to be signed off by the directors and to complete the various year end returns. The two taxation modules cover the actual self assessment for both personal and business returns (and goes further than the Level III Diploma in Self Assessment) whilst the Management Accounting Unit will show you the various techniques that can be used to analyse accounts and to enable you to prepare budgets and costing statements for your clients. They are all useful add on units to allow you to offer a chance to widen out the services that you can offer. If you have any specific queries please contact us directly at ICB via the memberservices@bookkeepers.org.ukk email address.

 

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  • # 103890

Bik said:

Hi Philco 

Had a look at the icpa website. Not too clear about the membership criteria. Will they accept a practicing bookkeeper as a member or do we need any  additional qualifications? 


It's a long time since I applied, so I don't want to prejudge their criteria. If you want to give them a ring and ask them, I can assure you they are very friendly and helpful and I'm sure will be able to answer your questions.

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  • # 103891

Carol-Fed said:

Ebeneezer said:

A very interesting discussion that seems to have identified a missing or unknown level of qualification. 

Something that sits between a bookkeeper preparing draft FSs and the titans of the chartered world dealing with PLCs, insolvency, international law and audit.

A qualification that allows accounting for companies identified by FRSSE but without the added years of training require by ACA et al.

Eb


 but don't we already have that with ICB's financial manager qualification? I asked a question about it on another thread and Jacquie Mount replied;

 

Jacquie said:

Dear Carol

Of the four available units the Drafting Financial Standards unit will cover how to prepare final accounts for a limited company to a state that is ready to be signed off by the directors and to complete the various year end returns. The two taxation modules cover the actual self assessment for both personal and business returns (and goes further than the Level III Diploma in Self Assessment) whilst the Management Accounting Unit will show you the various techniques that can be used to analyse accounts and to enable you to prepare budgets and costing statements for your clients. They are all useful add on units to allow you to offer a chance to widen out the services that you can offer. If you have any specific queries please contact us directly at ICB via the memberservices@bookkeepers.org.ukk email address.

 


 The truth of the matter is that, as long as you are an ICB member alone, the ICB will not allow you to call yourself an accountant. This, I suspect, might be a condition imposed by the Registrar of Companies. You can't register a company using the 'sensitive word' "Institute" unless you get permission from the government and to get permission from the government you have to meet the various dynamic criteria they impose as they have the absolute monopoly over the use of particular words. I don't know for certain, but, given there is a powerful protectionist lobby in the CCAB (consisting of the ACCA and ICAEW inter alia), I have a reasonable suspicion that the use of the word "Institute" might have been granted on the proviso that ICB members would not call themselves "Accountants" . . 

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  • # 103892

PhilCo said:

Bik said:

Hi Philco 

Had a look at the icpa website. Not too clear about the membership criteria. Will they accept a practicing bookkeeper as a member or do we need any  additional qualifications? 


It's a long time since I applied, so I don't want to prejudge their criteria. If you want to give them a ring and ask them, I can assure you they are very friendly and helpful and I'm sure will be able to answer your questions.


 ...btw, they offer Bookkeeper (as opposed to Accountant) membership too . . 

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I understand exactly where you are coming from in this, however the sad fact is, as we know all too well, that someone could finish working as a Bricklayer, a very good and high quality Bricklayer on a Friday evneing and decide... OH you know what, I can count, I have been countign bricks as I lay them for 10 years, who cares that I failed at GCSE Match, I am going to set up as an Accountant Monday Morning.

Unless they were to refer to one of the legal designations of Chartiered Certified or ACCA or any of the other intials, then they are not breakign the law, this will continue to be the case all the while that HMRC allow people to register with them for AML rathe than going thorugh a professional body!

 

I do think that there are plenty on here that effectively make a mockery of the amount of time enegry and money required to register as a qualified Accountant because we have done the BOokkeeping courses, yes our courses stretch us but those others, well! 

And yes, I regulalry get refered to as an Accountant, I very quickly correct them because I am proud of being a Bookkeeper and I am not going to stand in the shadows of the Accountants.

 

But there is an issue of actually people understandign what it is we do, I have genuinely had some people ask em if i was some kind of modern Librarian! and as an FRS 105 qualified Bookkeeper with Self Assesment Qualifications I do feel that I need to give my potential clients an idea of what I am actualyl able to do, so I tend to use the term Accountancy as an umbrella that covers everything and is understood clearly by my potential clients.

This is even more true since i begun refusing to work with Accountants, I either do it all or I dont do any! This isn't a matter of greed jsut simply a pragnmatic aproach that the m ajority of the time a client will believe an accountant over a Bookkeeper and the times I have had the rough end of an Accountant accuisng me of having done soemthing wrong to my client when I could prove that it was them in the wrong, or they come riding in on ther dark stallion and sweep up the accounts crunhc some figures and presnet you with a load more work to do jsut to make the accounts fit them instead of them fitting the accounts.

 

David



gigagirl said:

I feel the need to throw in my 2p.

I am AICB and have been for 5 years (although I will be upgrading to level IV by exemption when my renewal comes round).

I am a student member of ACCA and have completed 9 exams with only 5 professional papers to go.  I am 24 months into my 36 months full-time work experience, and have completed some of the Practical Experience Requirements of which I need to demonstrate competence in 9 out of 13 requirements.  Each of my exams including tuition, cost around £600 which I am paying for myself.

Given my level of knowledge and experience my clients do try and call me an accountant and I correct them every single time.  Having seen the depth of learning and knowledge required to qualify as an accountant, I would not dream of holding myself out to be such, until I have that piece of paper in my hand.

For unqualified people to tell potential customers that they are "Accountants" frightens and annoys me.

Just my opinion, but if you want the title, pay the money, do the study, make the sacrifices required to earn it.

Rant over

Andrea

xx


 

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Theresa said:

Hi Bik,

The AAT site is a little unclear...  the 'course finder' describes lv4 AAT as a platfrom from which to study for certified status - so I guess - not directly.

I think that the issue will, as with ACCA, be 'relevent experience'.  You need Sharon for this one.  I have a couple of MAAT friends locally, I seen to remember they had to have several years of work signed off before they got their MAAT status - which I am assuming, because of the work they do and what Sharon has said, is a certified accountant level.  But just how many years, and if bookkeeping work is 'relevent' or if you have to be in full employment as with ACCA, I just don't know.


 I am both an ICB Regulated bookkeeper and an AAT Licensed Accountant, I have pasted a copy of my license details below, however I still refer to my business as a 'bookkeeping' practice as we carry out bookkeeping to trial balance, management accounts, payroll etc.  However to obtain the MAAT status I had to complete the AAT Level 4 Diploma and have over one year relevant work experience and provide details of a C.A. who would provide a professional reference.  When I applied for the practice license I had to provide another professional reference and provide proof of my experience in the fields on my license.  I could be an AAT Licensed Bookkeeper if I held a Level 3 qualification, the AAT is a full member of the International Federation of Acccountants.

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