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Need Clarification re Subsistence

  • Member PM.Dip
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  • # 103265

Hi guys

I am hoping that you can clear something up for me.

My new client runs after school classes and birthday parties for children.  She has given me a years worth of paperwork to sort through.  I have noticed that there are receipts in there for meals or food that she has paid for.  I was under the understanding that this would be classed as Drawings, however when I told her that, she told me that her accountant (who previously did her bookeeping) put them through as a business expense (Subsistence). 

She does occasionally meet up with potential clients in local cafes and buy them a drink while they talk.  I would assume that this is a business expense because her sole reason for meeting up with these people is to win their business?  But a McDonalds before she goes to a class?  Surely that would be Drawings?

I hate to argue with an accountant so not sure whether to put them through now as a business expense or not.  Once I complete the bookkeeping side, it is going to the accountant to complete the self assessment.

What would you do?

 

Terri 

  • Companion Fellow PM.Dip
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  • 36 posts
  • # 103267

Terri 

 

It is probably worth referring to the HMRC guide on travel as this give a number of examples or where meals may or may not be claimed 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/321897/490.pdf

 

  • Member
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  • 119 posts
  • # 103276

Hi Terri

There is a distinction between what is a business expense and what is tax deductable. One prime example of this is entertainment - it is perfectly OK to record entertainment expenses in the accounts, but when the Accountant comes to do the tax return, they will add the entertainment expenses back to the profit in the tax computation, as these are not allowable for tax deduction.

When your client meets with her clients and buys them food or drink, this is entertainment and you should record this expense as such.

When your client buys food or drink for themselves, this is subsistence - and the rules for tax deductability are outlined here:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/bim47705.htm

You might want to set up two expense categories (nominals) for subsistence so you can record that which you are sure definately meets the tax deductable criteria and those for which are not sure (or are sure don't), separately. When you submit the books and records to the accountant, you can explain to him that this is what you have done. (And he should be pleased and impressed - as this will make his job easier!) It is then up to him to take a view on how to treat this expenditure in the tax comp.

Hope that helps - and would love to know how you get on :)



Edited at 11 Dec 2014 09:26 AM GMT

  • 491 posts
  • # 103310

I don't suppose any of these costs are for meals that the children are having at McDonalds, or food that she's buying for the childrens parties is it? If so, one could argue that these ARE business expenses? Just a different view.

I have a client that does mentoring to ex prisoners etc, helping them to get work. He often takes them to places such as McDonalds to have his interviews initially with these potential beneficiaries of his courses. As he can legitimately say that he needs to use this kind of venue in order to gain his potential benficiaries attention and take up of the courses, it becomes an allowable expense.

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  • # 103317

Lady of Ledger said:

I don't suppose any of these costs are for meals that the children are having at McDonalds, or food that she's buying for the childrens parties is it? If so, one could argue that these ARE business expenses? Just a different view.

I have a client that does mentoring to ex prisoners etc, helping them to get work. He often takes them to places such as McDonalds to have his interviews initially with these potential beneficiaries of his courses. As he can legitimately say that he needs to use this kind of venue in order to gain his potential benficiaries attention and take up of the courses, it becomes an allowable expense.


 That's a good and interesting point, Carol. I like it Smile



Edited at 14 Dec 2014 08:42 AM GMT

  • Member PM.Dip
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  • # 103320

Lady of Ledger said:

I don't suppose any of these costs are for meals that the children are having at McDonalds, or food that she's buying for the childrens parties is it? If so, one could argue that these ARE business expenses? Just a different view.

I have a client that does mentoring to ex prisoners etc, helping them to get work. He often takes them to places such as McDonalds to have his interviews initially with these potential beneficiaries of his courses. As he can legitimately say that he needs to use this kind of venue in order to gain his potential benficiaries attention and take up of the courses, it becomes an allowable expense.


 No, they are a Big Mac meal for one at the drivethrough.  They are quick meals for her inbetween classes or if she's running late.

 

Terri 

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