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CIS Deductions for sub-contractor - a strange way of working

  • 141 posts
  • # 104099

Hi everyone

I am fairly new to the whole 'CIS deductions' game and am still trying to get my head around it.  I use Solar Accounting Software and, thankfully, they have very useful help files which explain how CIS deductions should be treated.  However, I have one client who is a subcontractor for one particular company (I won't mention any names) which apparently has been taken to court on numerous occasions, including by HMRC, for how they operate with regards to their sub contractors.

Their process is as follows:

The subcontactor invoices them for VAT only (not for the actual labour, materials used, VAT and then CIS to be deducted).  The contractor then pays the VAT directly into the sub contractors bank account and raises a 'statement of deductions' which states the Gross Pay (this amount is the amount after the VAT has been deducted), the CIS deduction and net pay.  The net pay is then paid seperately.

The contractor will not accept any invoices for labour or materials, only for VAT!

 

Has anyone else come across this way of handling CIS?  I can raise an invoice in Solar without VAT for the purposes of recording the gross pay and CIS deducted, and I can also raise a seperate invoice just for the VAT element that actually gets invoiced so that it is shown within the VAT records but it all seems very ominous to me.

Any advice/guidance/opinions would be appreciated.

  • 794 posts
  • # 104100

Hi Jennifer,

I have a question:

Is the main contractor one who does self-billing invoices?

This is the only reason I can think of that they would not accept the invoice from your client. However, they would have to be registered with HMRC to do self-billing and they would send you the invoice which would be clearly marked Self-Billing Invoice. You would still have to raise an invoice in your accounts but not send it to them.

As for your client sending them an invoice just for the Vat - well this is a new one for me and I have been dealing with CIS for years.

Marilyn

  • 141 posts
  • # 104110

Hi Marilyn, as far as I am aware the contractor does not self-bill as my client (the sub contractor) has never received a self-billing invoice from them, only this statement showing gross pay, the CIS deducted and the net pay.  The only way that I can actually enter all of the transactions into the accounts is to just enter invoices that won't actually go anywhere.  Why oh why do I have to get a nice complicated one for my first experience of CIS deductions?  ;)

  • 794 posts
  • # 104113

Hi Jennifer,

Yes these things try your patience!

However, if it were me, I would not be willing to send them an invoice just for the vat only.

I would send them the correct invoice detailing materials and labour etc and let them do what they want with it at their end.

If they still want to make two separate payments into your bank for the vat etc then as long as they are paying the total amount due that would be ok.

I would question their reasons for a vat only invoice and would even consider speaking to HMRC to get their view on it.

Marilyn

  • 141 posts
  • # 104131

Thanks for your responses Marilyn.  I have now sent an email to the contractor (copied in my client) requesting clarification from them as to what their proceedures actually are and stating that it would be better practice for my client to invoice them for labour, materials used etc rather than just VAT (all of this was sent with the permission of my client btw) to see what response I get.  At least that way I will have the information in writing before requesting further clarification from HMRC if needs be.  I am hoping it is just a case of my client having got a bit confused regarding the invoicing proceedures rather than them actually stating they will only accept invoices purely for VAT, but I guess I will have to wait for their response.

  • Member PM.Dip
  • Practice Licence
  • 23 posts
  • # 104132

Y5C6 said:

“Thanks for your responses Marilyn.  I have now sent an email to the contractor (copied in my client) requesting clarification from them as to what their proceedures actually are and stating that it would be better practice for my client to invoice them for labour, materials used etc rather than just VAT (all of this was sent with the permission of my client btw) to see what response I get.  At least that way I will have the information in writing before requesting further clarification from HMRC if needs be.  I am hoping it is just a case of my client having got a bit confused regarding the invoicing proceedures rather than them actually stating they will only accept invoices purely for VAT, but I guess I will have to wait for their response.”

 Please let us know the outcome. I have worked with CIS for several years but have not come accross this sort of proceedure before. The mind boggles.

  • 141 posts
  • # 104136

Excuse me for my little outburst of exhileration..... HUZZAH!!!  I have received the email that I desired.  The contractor will accept full invoices for labour, materials etc from now on, although they did not explain why they would only accept VAT only invoices up until now.  At least that will make my job easier from here on in and keep my client above board with his invoicing proceedures.

  • Member PM.Dip
  • Practice Licence
  • 23 posts
  • # 104138

Great to hear. Strange way of doing things originally though.

Paul 

  • 794 posts
  • # 104140

Maybe the thought of HMRC investigating him again made him think twice!

I think he was trying it on personally and your email made him decide to do it properly!

Yipee! Another one being compliant now!

Marilyn

  • 491 posts
  • # 104147

Just out of interest - and thinking outside the box - are you sure that the invoices they were asking for, were for VAT only? Or were they for CIS deduction only?

As VAT is 20% at the moment - if the bill was for £1000 labour plus VAT at 20% - the VAT would be £200. The CIS to deduct on this, if standard deduction applies, would also be £200 - being 20% of the £1,000 labour. It might be easy to misunderstand and believe that it was VAT invoices that were being asked for, when in fact it was CIS deduction invoices.......perhaps???

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