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Good Morning all,
First of all I would like to state the following to counter attack comments which takes the discussion off track from the point I wish to make:
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This is just my opinion, you may agree – you may not
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This is a public forum and is open to the public to read but that is the way it is
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I pay my membership just like you, I am a member just like you
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This post is for members to contribute to and not third parties, regardless of where it is posted.
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It’s not an invitation to argue, bully or be offensive with or to anyone who contributes
The ICB appears to now have become a platform for businesses to promote, push and offer discounted rates of their products to ICB members, and also contribute to the forums, (and I do include training providers here also). The ICB has so many ‘Accredited Partners’ now and it is seems daily that we are introduced to another ‘Accredited Partner’. I appreciate that these Partners will sponsor and provide income for the ICB but at the end of the day, its advertising and a biased view and not impartial.
I am sure that now the summit is over, ICB HQ will be drafting the Early Bird Ticket Sales Emails for release on Monday for 2015! The ICB summit is like an ‘SCS’ Sale - it’s always on! Not to mention constant reminders of ICB Benefits. (Yes, I know some may have found this as a saving)
Taking all of the above items out of the equation, it leaves the question of- What does the ICB represent?
I created and launched the Greater Manchester Branch two years ago and it has been a great success, and continues to do so with Graham Shaw as the New Branch Chair. During this time it is clear what members want and more importantly need – support and on-going training!
ICB Branches – Organised by the Members for the Members
CPD – Responsibility of the Members for the Members
Buddy Programme – Provided by the Members for the Members
Practice Builder Events – charged at £199.00 per member!
So what is the ICB providing for us?
The buddy programme, did have a great response on the forum, although I noted that some of buddies actually didn’t have much time served under their belt and they should be being supported themselves. I have constantly shared my 20 years’ experience with the Manchester Group and have enjoyed doing so, and would encourage the growth of the Branches rather than solely a buddy programme.
The ICB should be focusing on supporting us, the members, with ongoing support instead of constant discounts, offers and global domination. A structured CPD programme, a structured post qualification programme, a members focused professional organisation, instead of the ‘ICB Who are they?’ is what I am constantly asked. The ICB has a lack of consistency, and will make an announcement, launch something only for us to be waiting and then it fades away.
I appreciate Mike Foster has been active recently and this is a positive move for the ICB but it hasn’t changed the way ICB works.
I requested, via email, a copy of the Annual Accounts of the ICB, as, as a member I thought it would be very useful and interesting to see how the association works. The AAT provides this information each year and it provides transparency and demonstrates how then association is working for us. I received no response from the ICB, nor to my query of the DLA balance in the company house accounts.
Ultimately, I am frustrated with the ICB, you may agree, you may not, I could just cancel my renewal of membership, but that would be too easy, without members there would be no ICB, and after all I have sat the exams achieved the qualification, pay my subs, so why should this be the end of the ICB journey?
What do you want from the ICB?
Christopher.
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Hi Christopher,
You have just put into words exactly what I have been thinking for some time.
Every point you have made is valid (in my opinion).
Will be interesting to see the response from others.
Marilyn
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- Companion Fellow PM.Dip
- 1139 posts
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Chris
I am posting here strictly as a Moderator.
As moderator you have posted in the General Chat room. You do not have the right under the forum rules to say who can take part in this post. You have a right to say how you feel about the ICB as do all who post in ths forum. but as a moderator any one can can take part in this forum.
Kind Regards
Sarah Douglas
Moderator
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sarah said:
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Chris
I am posting here strictly as a Moderator.
As moderator you have posted in the General Chat room. You do not have the right under the forum rules to say who can take part in this post. You have a right to say how you feel about the ICB as do all who post in ths forum. but as a moderator any one can can take part in this forum.
Kind Regards
Sarah Douglas
Moderator
”
Fair enough, thanks for the pointer.
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A very interesting post Christopher.
From what you have put I am assuming you are also a paid up member of AAT. What do they offer their membership as comparison please?
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Good Evening Christopher
I have made some comments in the forum !!! and mentioned what the AAT seem to be doing for their members. I am a newbie, joined the ICB and doing my exams, currently working on my Level 3 Manual bookkeeping (old style syllabus) and trying to get my MICB before 1st April 2015.
I didn't do the distance AAT learning as it wasn't an option at the time (Premier Training now offer distance learning AAT). Aa a MAAT and MICB, I would love to know from your experience how the two organisations compare and why you decided to join the ICB as you are a MAAT - surely you are paying two memberships etc - when you only need one !!!
Regards
Trevor
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Trevor said:
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Good Evening Christopher
I have made some comments in the forum !!! and mentioned what the AAT seem to be doing for their members. I am a newbie, joined the ICB and doing my exams, currently working on my Level 3 Manual bookkeeping (old style syllabus) and trying to get my MICB before 1st April 2015.
I didn't do the distance AAT learning as it wasn't an option at the time (Premier Training now offer distance learning AAT). Aa a MAAT and MICB, I would love to know from your experience how the two organisations compare and why you decided to join the ICB as you are a MAAT - surely you are paying two memberships etc - when you only need one !!!
Regards
Trevor
”
Hi Trevor,
Thanks for the input, Yes I am an FMAAT, and MICB and also three modules on ATT so three memberships all in all. Yes, you do only need one membership, but if you want to progress and continue your professional development and keep your skills afresh, then doing other qualifications and exams will count towards this, as this was in my case, and was the reason for my joining. In addition to this reason I also was interested about being involved and creating a branch which i did.
With respect Trevor, and well done on the studying by the way, what I have experienced is that post qualification, it is the transformation of student to AICB or MICB that the members struggle and feel abandoned as they do not have the support of what to do next. It will be interesting to see how you feel in April 2016 when you have achieved the MICB and Practice License for a year. What you are experiencing now is basically down to the training provider and not the ICB.
Kind regards,
Christopher.
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Theresa said:
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A very interesting post Christopher.
From what you have put I am assuming you are also a paid up member of AAT. What do they offer their membership as comparison please?
”
Hi Theresa,
Light hearted response, remember I am not intending an argument.
Yes, as I have mentioned in the post to Trevor, I am FMAAT, and an MIP. I stand to be corrected but the AAT is a registered Charity and all money raised goes back in to enable the AAT to continue for the better of it's members. Questions for you - Is the ICB a Limited Company?! Are their owners? Is it non for profit? Does anyone benefit financially from its performance? We do not get annual accounts and only abbreivated accounts are filed at Companies House. The AAT openly publishes its financial statements each year. Do you not want to know where your membership fees are going? I Do.
The AAT provides a structured mandatory CPD program which is compulsary at each annual renewal of the practice licence. It has a wealth of information, techninal resources, webinars and decent templates, it was only today that a member had commented on the Letter of Engagement being rather poor in the ICB members area.
The branch network attendance is rewarded with CPD points, a comment often raised on this forum.
The AAT has a published printed magazine issued through the door and has an app.
The bookkeepers role needs to be recognised and thought and looked at in a professional manner from other businesses and clients.
The Summit is purley a conference for selling and not primary in the interest of the member.
Kind regards,
Christopher.
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As you say Christopher - I have no Idea how the ICB is structured ! - Who owns it ! - just googled company limited by gurantee, no wiser !
Regards
Trevor
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Christopher said:
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Hi Theresa,
Light hearted response, remember I am not intending an argument.
Yes, as I have mentioned in the post to Trevor, I am FMAAT, and an MIP. I stand to be corrected but the AAT is a registered Charity and all money raised goes back in to enable the AAT to continue for the better of it's members. Questions for you - Is the ICB a Limited Company?! Are their owners? Is it non for profit? Does anyone benefit financially from its performance? We do not get annual accounts and only abbreivated accounts are filed at Companies House. The AAT openly publishes its financial statements each year. Do you not want to know where your membership fees are going? I Do.
The AAT provides a structured mandatory CPD program which is compulsary at each annual renewal of the practice licence. It has a wealth of information, techninal resources, webinars and decent templates, it was only today that a member had commented on the Letter of Engagement being rather poor in the ICB members area.
The branch network attendance is rewarded with CPD points, a comment often raised on this forum.
The AAT has a published printed magazine issued through the door and has an app.
The bookkeepers role needs to be recognised and thought and looked at in a professional manner from other businesses and clients.
The Summit is purley a conference for selling and not primary in the interest of the member.
Kind regards,
Christopher.
”
Ok, I'll try and take those in turn....
Congrats on all your qualifications, puts my degree in Maths and Computer Science along with my AICB in place :) All joking aside - well done, I do understand the hours not to say years you have put into getting to where you are now.
AAT is a Charity? Interesting - it would explain the fullness of their accounts as that is a requirement of SORP. The ICB is a not-for-profit organisation so your implication that someone (or several someones) may be getting rich off our fees is, well lets not go there shall we? I somehow doubt it, personally.
Do I want to know how the ICB spend my membership fees? Well, apart from the email and phone help lines, the freely available knowledge base that we all have access to. The regular email newsletter (saves on printing and posting costs) and the MLR supervision that most ICB practice licence holders use... (Is this starting to sound a bit Monty Python?) I'm sure if I thought about it I could list more.
Structured CPD - comes in next year, as announced at the Summit you seem to dislike so much
CPD points for Branch Meeting attendance - yes, we get that, one FICB got their knuckles rapped recently for not listing all their staff who attended!
Letter of Engagement - well you got me there - it could do with work I'll grant you! I wouldn't mind something a little more comprehensive on how to employ someone - a state of affairs I might reach within the next calendar year.
Technical resources and webinairs - to be honest I'm not missing 'em. Any in particular you want - ask and you may be given, they can't work in a vaccume!
Do I feel I get value for money and support from the ICB - Yes, I do. I have never been made to feel a fool for asking a question or that my status as an AICB makes me any less desirable that someone like yourself who is qualified to the eye teeth and knows more than I ever will.
I think the difference you feel is that between spoon feeding and encouraging independant growth. Unlike AAT, ACCA and so on the ICB is pointed very firmly at those with an independant spirit who want to walk their own path, we are grown people, able to manage our lives and structure our time to achieve the ends we want. We don't need to have our hands held and be given baby steps - I suspect I would find the restrictive nature of AAT and ACCA suffocating.
This may not be the 'light hearted' response you wanted but the ICB is not light hearted - it is very serious. Serious about forging a position in the employment market for us, serious about the training and qualifications we get, serious that we, as a group are seen to set best practice and to have the highest of standards. Their methods to achieve these aims may not match with the other bodies you are a member of but is that a bad thing?
Having galloped my hobby horse around the room I'll see what respose I get.
Enjoy your weekend everyone!
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Christopher, I agree with much of what you have said. These are questions I asked on another popular bookkeeping forum back in November 2010 (which are still there). I will not become too involved in this as I was banned from the forum before when I started asking too many difficult questions in public.
Little has changed since then in terms of ICB transparency in their accounts in this time. I do believe that members should get to see more detail, and always wondered why this was not the case.
This is the main reason I pay my practice license and membership fees and no more. I don't attend the Summit, and don't pay for added services or meetings.
I did run the local branch for a short time, but constraints on my time meant this was only short term. While these are important, I find the webinars and online meetings I now run elsewhere for bookkeepers easier to manage and easier for people to attend.
I didn't realise that the ICB has finally taken the decision to make CPD compulsory and think it's long overdue, so welcome this announcement.
Regards
Kris
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Hi Theresa,
Obviously I did not imply the ICB was 'Light Hearted' nor the profession, merely my repsonse being polite and as a discussion as I said from the outset, I dont want to get involved in rants and arguments.
I appreciate your response and input, as I said , people may agree with me they may not, and your input is from your point of view and it fuels the topic on, So thank you.
I do not want the ICB to be a carbon copy of the AAT.
That's my response, and I look forward to seeing other comments on this discusison.
Christopher.
Theresa said:
“
Christopher said:
“
Hi Theresa,
Light hearted response, remember I am not intending an argument.
Yes, as I have mentioned in the post to Trevor, I am FMAAT, and an MIP. I stand to be corrected but the AAT is a registered Charity and all money raised goes back in to enable the AAT to continue for the better of it's members. Questions for you - Is the ICB a Limited Company?! Are their owners? Is it non for profit? Does anyone benefit financially from its performance? We do not get annual accounts and only abbreivated accounts are filed at Companies House. The AAT openly publishes its financial statements each year. Do you not want to know where your membership fees are going? I Do.
The AAT provides a structured mandatory CPD program which is compulsary at each annual renewal of the practice licence. It has a wealth of information, techninal resources, webinars and decent templates, it was only today that a member had commented on the Letter of Engagement being rather poor in the ICB members area.
The branch network attendance is rewarded with CPD points, a comment often raised on this forum.
The AAT has a published printed magazine issued through the door and has an app.
The bookkeepers role needs to be recognised and thought and looked at in a professional manner from other businesses and clients.
The Summit is purley a conference for selling and not primary in the interest of the member.
Kind regards,
Christopher.
”
Ok, I'll try and take those in turn....
Congrats on all your qualifications, puts my degree in Maths and Computer Science along with my AICB in place :) All joking aside - well done, I do understand the hours not to say years you have put into getting to where you are now.
AAT is a Charity? Interesting - it would explain the fullness of their accounts as that is a requirement of SORP. The ICB is a not-for-profit organisation so your implication that someone (or several someones) may be getting rich off our fees is, well lets not go there shall we? I somehow doubt it, personally.
Do I want to know how the ICB spend my membership fees? Well, apart from the email and phone help lines, the freely available knowledge base that we all have access to. The regular email newsletter (saves on printing and posting costs) and the MLR supervision that most ICB practice licence holders use... (Is this starting to sound a bit Monty Python?) I'm sure if I thought about it I could list more.
Structured CPD - comes in next year, as announced at the Summit you seem to dislike so much
CPD points for Branch Meeting attendance - yes, we get that, one FICB got their knuckles rapped recently for not listing all their staff who attended!
Letter of Engagement - well you got me there - it could do with work I'll grant you! I wouldn't mind something a little more comprehensive on how to employ someone - a state of affairs I might reach within the next calendar year.
Technical resources and webinairs - to be honest I'm not missing 'em. Any in particular you want - ask and you may be given, they can't work in a vaccume!
Do I feel I get value for money and support from the ICB - Yes, I do. I have never been made to feel a fool for asking a question or that my status as an AICB makes me any less desirable that someone like yourself who is qualified to the eye teeth and knows more than I ever will.
I think the difference you feel is that between spoon feeding and encouraging independant growth. Unlike AAT, ACCA and so on the ICB is pointed very firmly at those with an independant spirit who want to walk their own path, we are grown people, able to manage our lives and structure our time to achieve the ends we want. We don't need to have our hands held and be given baby steps - I suspect I would find the restrictive nature of AAT and ACCA suffocating.
This may not be the 'light hearted' response you wanted but the ICB is not light hearted - it is very serious. Serious about forging a position in the employment market for us, serious about the training and qualifications we get, serious that we, as a group are seen to set best practice and to have the highest of standards. Their methods to achieve these aims may not match with the other bodies you are a member of but is that a bad thing?
Having galloped my hobby horse around the room I'll see what respose I get.
Enjoy your weekend everyone!
”
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kjmcculloch said:
“Christopher, I agree with much of what you have said. These are questions I asked on another popular bookkeeping forum back in November 2010 (which are still there). I will not become too involved in this as I was banned from the forum before when I started asking too many difficult questions in public. Little has changed since then in terms of ICB transparency in their accounts in this time. I do believe that members should get to see more detail, and always wondered why this was not the case. This is the main reason I pay my practice license and membership fees and no more. I don't attend the Summit, and don't pay for added services or meetings. I did run the local branch for a short time, but constraints on my time meant this was only short term. While these are important, I find the webinars and online meetings I now run elsewhere for bookkeepers easier to manage and easier for people to attend. I didn't realise that the ICB has finally taken the decision to make CPD compulsory and think it's long overdue, so welcome this announcement. Regards Kris ”
Hi Kris,
It is interesting to know that these questions have been asked and thought before, and I will have a look at them.
I think our journey and experience of the ICB has been very similar and I agree with what youy say.
Regards,
Christopher
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MM Bookkeeping said:
“
Hi Christopher,
You have just put into words exactly what I have been thinking for some time.
Every point you have made is valid (in my opinion).
Will be interesting to see the response from others.
Marilyn
”
Thanks Marilyn,
It's not just me then and it is good to know
Regards,
Christopher
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It was interesting to see that the second response was that of a moderator, and with over 1100 views, no repsonse or assistance from ICB HQ.
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Hi everybody,
A very interesting thread. Without going through every point discussed I will tell you what the ICB means to me. I have been a member for a couple of years and have held a Practise Licence for 18 months. I chose the ICB because I was able to achieve the qualifications and sit the exams when it suited me. I couldnt do this with the AAT, these exams were either once or twice a year. I got the exams that I wanted and this enabled me to set up a business on my own and set up a nice web site and use the ICB logos etc. which looks professional. For me this has definately attracted clients as it shows I am part of a professional organisation. I only do this part time but once I retire from my main job I aim to carry on with this business for a number of years.
My personal dealings with the ICB have been limited to several phone calls on the advice line requesting the help of a senior bookkeeper. I needed advice about some accounts I was preparing. I wasnt too impressed with this advice as I also posted the same question on another accounting web site and got the opposite answer from several professional accountants which was the advice I eventually followed. The ICB were adament that they were correct and yet I later spoke to 2 Chartered Accountants who disagreed with the ICB. So I dont ring them for advice now, I use the Forum.
To be honest I am mainly with the ICB now for the Practise Licence, MLR and for the use of their logos. The Forum is great but I could use it free anyway. I sometimes think of not renewing my licence but worry about the adverse effect it would have on my web site and business. I mean I know I could still practice but could the law change in the future and everything become more regulated and with the ICB the only qualifications I have would my business fold. I dont really know where i would stand.
Another thing that has anoyed me about the ICB is these Training Provider offers that come up. I had it in mind that I was going to do my level 3 eventually once I got established in business with Sole Traders. I spotted a great offer from one so decided to purchase the course but not start it straight away. Big mistake! I didnt realise that they were thinking of changing the sylabus and exam. So now I find myself with a course I have hardly started and no realistic chance of completing before the deadline. Im well sick. Ended up wasting money rather than saving it..
I do get the feeling that the ICB is a money making organisation. People are being paid very good salaries out of our fees. Why the caginess of their accounts?
CPD is a good thing but for me I can get most things I need online without having to travel to events. Just by looking at the photos and reading feedback there are always ICB partners trying to sell you stuff, you probably dont need. I am comstantly reading books and spend hours on the HMRC website trying to improve my knowledge and stay up to date with things.
I do sometimes wish I had gone the AAT path as its more well known and established and seems better thought of, but its too late now.
I guess I will stick with the ICB. I am always searching for more knowledge but am getting too long in the tooth for exams. I think I am going to just stick with Sole Traders and write off the level 3. It is anoying because I did want to pass it but Im not going to waste more money on the new version.
Just wonder if many people leave the ICB and are sucessful without being under their umbrella. I mean once you have got the customers do you really need the logo!
Yes the LoE template is rubbish too.
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Hi again,
Just to go back to my previous post.
Regarding my comments on my potential failure to complete the level 3 in time. I have this morning been contacted by my training provider who has corrected me on my understanding of the switch over to the new sylabus. It was explained that the course I have bought is still relevant and I wont have to spend any more money on new modules etc. They have extended my course registration by 6 months to June 2015 also. So hopefully I can get back on track with the studying and even if I am not ready to sit the exam by April 2015 I can still do so at a later date with no further expense and some alternative study instructions. They will be publishing a document in the coming weeks which will lay out the options and alternative study instructions required for those who cannot complete on time. So if anyone is in the same boat as me and feels time is running out, just contact your training provider as mine was only too willing to help.
Also in my post I talk about the ICB logo, I obviously mean the ICB Crest. I do think having this on letter heads, documents and your website is a massive benefit. It links to the ICB website so potential clients can find out who the ICB are. I think the cost, a couple of hundred pounds a year or so is probably worth it just for this. For me starting out it has anyway as otherwise my website would be a bit bare and unless you knew what ICB level 2 was it wouldnt mean that much. My clients have always commented on my professional looking website anyway.
I personally hope that when this CPD becomes compulsory we arent forced to attend meetings etc. It might appeal to some but if members arent particularly outgoing it can be a bit of an issue if you ask me. I would prefer to be left alone to do my own CPD at home online or with webinars etc. I would be interested if anyone else felt the same. I am not shirking my continued development but would dread having to attend conferences. I have seen the photos of those from last year and they dont look particularly happy to be there.
One last point. Has anyone read the ICAEW Technical Release AAF 03/10? I was pointed in its direction and found it very helpful. It gives good guidance on Terms of Engagement and Accountants Reports. It needs adjusted to fit with the ICB and our codes of practise but it gives an insight into how accountants deal with these matters. It will be of use if you prepare final accounts etc. I am not saying just copy it as it isnt all relevant to us but its worth looking at before you start drafting your own LoE or Report of Accounts. It gives an insight of the legalities accountants need to consider which we as bookkeepers should be also considering when engaging with clients.
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Good Afternoon Gazza
I am in the same boat as you - trying to complete my Level 3 studies on the old syllabus - but my studying has gone down to virtually nothing after a disastrous house move.
Whos was your training provider ? Will you have to sit the new exams if after April 2015 ?
Regards
Trevor
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- Member PM.Dip
- Practice Licence
- 746 posts
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Hi everyone.
Why do we all slander a group that we are surposed to be proud to be part of? I actually luv the ICB, I love the forum and all its good advice and people and I'll be honest any time i'd rang the ICB for advice ti has been good. No they are not perfect, but is any group, thats why us as memebers have to give our views in order to improbe things, (which is great), but why do we have to do it in a picking faults way? We are a good group, the ICB qualifications are getting more reconciled. I could not have done what I do with the help and support of everyone both in this group and beyond. Lets make the ICB the best without picking faults with each other. Lets show the ICB exactly what we want from the group and be the best professional body therir is.
Kind regards and very best wishes
Lainy
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Hi Trevor,
I am with Ideal Schools. They say they will supply me with alternative study instructions to include the computerised elements. When the exams cease on 31/3/15 you move over to the new structure. There are 2 stages to this.
2 x home based exams covering Partnerships & not for profit organisations. These will upgrade your current AICB status to include the completion of accounts for these business types within your practice license with ICB.
1 x home based & 1 Centre Based exam at the new Level IV Cert state that will take you to full membership.
So all is not lost. Not sure how many exams it would have been if done before 1/4/15, so it may be extra exam fees only if anything.
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Good Evening Gazza
I am with Training Link and I am sure they will offer me as much support and help as they can ! I like the idea of two home based exams to enable partnerships and not for profit orgs (as I have my sights set on a couple).
I get a bit confused on what the big difference is between MICB and AICB (especially with the new added benefit of partnerships and not for profit orgs). I believe we can only do final accounts for sole traders with even an MICB (only draft for the rest). Also with the self certifcate qualification we can complete tax returns (but not offer any tax advice at all) - with the payroll qualification we can provide payroll services fully covered by the ICB .... I am very grateful for this.
Lainy
I totally agree with everything you say and also hold the ICB in high regard (and it has enabled me to do what I need and require) ..... As a former union leader and senior manager ..... The thing that I dont understand about the ICB is HOW we can make a difference, have a voice (or vote) on the structure and direction of the ICB. No structure chart exists of the org or committees or minutes published of meetings. I know the FICB folk have a committee and the training providers. HOW can I be elected to represent the humble AICBers ... you can't.
The ICB is what the ICB is, full stop. It will continue and steer ahead in its own inimitable way.
Regards
Trevor
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Trevor said:
“
The thing that I dont understand about the ICB is HOW we can make a difference, have a voice (or vote) on the structure and direction of the ICB. No structure chart exists of the org or committees or minutes published of meetings. I know the FICB folk have a committee and the training providers. HOW can I be elected to represent the humble AICBers ... you can't.
The ICB is what the ICB is, full stop. It will continue and steer ahead in its own inimitable way.
Regards
Trevor
”
Trevor,
To highligt just one section of your most interesting post. Have you thought of applying to be on the advisory panel?
The advisory panel, made up of students, AICB etc... does exactly what it says on the tin - it sits on a regular basis to discuss how the ICB is doing, what new legislation is on the boards, how CPD shoulld be measured - and a lot more besides. It is a sounding board for the management to get our input and that input will be listened to!
Just a thought :)
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Good Evening Theresa
A very very good point ..... I have just found the section on the web site and will put my name forward ... after I meet the requirements....
I see they have very detailed and ownerous responsibilities and meet twice a year and form working parties ... How can I view the minutes of the meetings ?
Will they be visiting the branches to seek input ?
Regards
Trevor
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Trevor,
The advisory council minutes are kept right alongside the accounts. When you find out where be sure to let us all know.
Kris
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Hi Trevor,
Training link should be able to help. At current level 2 (AICB CB.Cert) you can produce Final Accounts for Sole Traders. You cant give tax advice however only tell them the options and let them decide for themselves. HMRC will start referring to you as a Tax Advisor however once you register as a Tax Agent. It is a little confusing.
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We are members of a professional industry and association and we strive for professionalism, transparency and reporting and overall guidance with an example to be followed as set by our association.
The ICB does not provide transparency with its own reporting and it is not meant to slander the ICB but to have the clarity of the association for which we are all members. How can a bookkeeping association be so adamant that the accounts and the running details are not to be made public, if this was a client being so evasive, would we be not the slightest bit cautions and suspicious?
I was the founder of the Greater Manchester Branch and supported the ICB with my role as Branch Chair and had an opportunity to be on the Advisory Panel, but I feel that big changes would need to be made. Since 2010 being a member, it seems the same old each year, and it does beg the question, should the membership be renewed? I want the ICB to improve and be better, not bring it down. It seems that when we ask questions we are cast in an anti-icb corner.
I would like to shape the ICB as a member but as with my original posts it needs to be established how the ICB is structured. Unless I am corrected I think that ultimately, the ICB is a family run Ltd company trading with a view to profit. Several members of the Carter family are directors of the company (see companies house) and it would be interesting to see how much of the Employee costs are taken by our membership in addition to the Directors Loan Account (download the accounts from companies house) not to mention the globetrotting. If this is the case then as in my first post, the ICB has become and still today offering more Accredited Partners on the basis of sponsorship which the training providers also do. The accredited partners and the ICB both make profits from us the members. The ICB should be non-for profit and all funds raised put back in to continue to improve and better the services for members and each member allocated a vote for elections and a say on how the ICB should be run. Does this sound unfair and unethical?
Should we really just be a member for the sake of using the crest and the letters after own names and continue to pay subscriptions for this each year? If so we are over a barrel of continuing our membership. Ongoing support, structured CPD, better branch support, (The branch handbook never materialised) less selling and constant pushing of the accredited partners’ products and concentrate on making the best bookkeepers in the industry.
The message is simple - Members before profit, as it is cleary a profit making concern for the owners.
You may agree you may not, but this is what the forum is for, for discussing our opinions and everything that has been said here has been said before by others.
If this is removed or I am banned from the forum for having an opinion then I rest my case.
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Christopher,
I totally agree with everything you've said. I couldn't have put it better myself.
Now come on Garry, let's have some clarity.
Kris
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Well I think someone from Head Office needs to respond to this thread and sooner rather than later if you ask me. The silence is deafening! With well over 10,000 views in such a short time and growing by the day. This non response is doing the ICB no good at all. People from other organisations will be reading everything been said and laughing. I am sure HQ will be well aware of members concerns and be drafting a response as I type so hopefully we will be updated today. The longer we hear nothing the more damage it is causing to ICBs reputation I feel.
I am proud to be a member of the ICB and feel I am getting value for money. Everything isnt perfect but I can deal with that. I had no real interest in viewing the ICBs accounts or knowing its structure to be honest, but now with what has been posted I am curious and have a feeling there may be one or two at the top sweating under their collars!
So lets get everything out in the open because people are starting to think the worst..
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Are we a part or connected to this association aswell?
http://www.icfmglobal.org/ along with ICBGlobal?
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Still a resounding slience from anyone at ICB head office - Ami is on leave but where is James?
Christopher,
I would think from the number of names that appear on both the ICB board and on the ICFM board that the two companies must indeed be linked - not sure that this is the best time to have heavy links to Russia given the somewhat dodgy political situation but there you go. The ICFM was founded before the current unrest and I doubt that pulling out is a very financially attractive option. They still need bookkeppers and financial management staff I'm sure. Better to have well trained ones!
I will now eat some humble pie, Christopher, if my remarks on 18th Oct were too harsh, I apologise. I might not have liked what you said, or how it was phrased but parts of my response are well out of order. Sorry.
If your aim was to make people think, it has certaintly done so for me and while I still believe that the ICB is the best bookkeeping body, with some of the most rigourous testing I have to accept that there is indeed the odd crack showing. However I don't think it is too late for the ICB to correct the problems. To haul back on this aquisitive, mercinary phase it appears to be going through and for it to follow through with the oft mentioned desires of the membership for work place recognition and a more hands on approach towards members from head office.
Still... it would be nice if they responded...
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Hi Christopher & everone else who has responded,
It is beyond me that this post has had 19402 views and no response from ICB.
Are they hoping that if they ignore it it will go away?!!!
I am fed up getting emails from ICB which are trying to 'sell' me something. It has got to the point where I just delete them now without even reading them. If it continues I will just block their emails.
I am having a personal grievance with ICB at the moment ref SageOne which doesn't help how I am feeling about them or Sage for that matter!
Marilyn
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Good Afternoon Marilyn
My Sage One experience through the ICB offer has been less than good (Well a nightmare and put me off cloud software a bit). I have canned it and just checking that Sage dont take any further monthly fees !!!
Regards
Trevor
PS - I was hoping to use my free Sage One payroll for my exam.
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Wow!
From 10,000 to 20,000 hits in 2 days
Mike Ashley has 52,000 awaiting a response from him but as long as he's raking it in Newcastle supporters will hear nothing either!
Doesnt make it right!
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Hi Trevor,
Maybe shouldn't post this reply to your post here but I will anyway!
SageOne Free for all members - I received my email in Feb 2013 stating I could get this free for as long as I was a member.
No Terms & Conditions stated in email or any indication where I could find them. Got email form Sage in Oct 2014 saying I would have to pay to continue using it. Contacted Sage who said if I contacted ICB they should issue me with a new activation code.
ICB say I will have to pay to continue using it. I contacted Trading Standards who said I should find out the T & C's. After a while I managed to find the T & C's on ICB website. Hidden on goodness knows what page number after I had read a load of conditions I came across the one sentence stating that it would be chargeable after a trial period. Just as well I hadn't used it for my own accounts as I would not have further access to it without paying!
Now, my question is - why was this not clearly shown on the initial email offering the 'free' SageOne to members for the duration of their membership?
It would appear there is one rule for ICB and another for us because I am sure we would be in trouble if we did something like this in our e.g. Letter of Engagement to clients.
Rant over for the time being!
Marilyn
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It is amazing the amount of views this thread has received and as it has been said - no response from the ICB.
Theresa, no need for pie or apologies, your comments were fine, we are all passionate about the ICB and this is why we are all here to make our voices and opinions heard.
The Sage One is a prime example, of a product given the ICB platform to shout from and a database of potential customers to email constantly.
This problem will not go away and does need to be addressed, we are members and it is very clear that we are not being put first.
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The secret of good customer focused organisation isn't to never make mistakes, it'd hoe they deal with their customers in the wake of getting things wrong. In this, so far, the ICB is failing miserably.
If we were to treat our clients with a similar contemp we would either not bi in business very long, or I suspend that the client may complain to our professional body. How can ICB hold the members to account when they will not be held to account themselves?
i appreciate that there has been a birth in the family, but surely the celebrations are now over and we can get a reply?
James Wilson and George Kelling came us with the broken windows theory in 1982. It says that a building with a few broken windows which are not replaced will attract more broken windows, eventually people will break in. They may squat or set fires. Let's fix the broken windows now ICB.
As a demostration of your willingness to build trust release the last 3 years full accounts.
Kris
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- Member PM.Dip
- Practice Licence
- 1 post
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Hi all, this is my first post onto the forum. I agree with much that has been said and whilst being a member and holding a practice licence has certainly benefitted my business certain parts of the organisation just don't sit right with me.
Communication to the "ordinary" members is one. I was nominated last year for Bookkeeping Practice at the Luca awards. I facilitated this because I happened to to be on the website and saw that they were accepting nominations during the couple of weeks before the dinner. I have been to the awards dinner twice - 1 year when you could openly buy tickets and then last year because I was nominated. Even though I was a nominee I was not and have never been introduced to Gary Carter or anyone else from ICB. There was a reception for us "oridinaries" and another for the Russians and The prince.
Did anyone see requests for nominations for 2014? Has anyone seen the results from the 2014 awards ceremony? I haven't seen anything, but we pay our subs and promote the ICB all year round.
I agree that transparency in accounts and management etc. should be essential in an organisation like this especially if they want to retain the respect of their "ordinary" members.
You may have concluded from my comments that I am feeling pretty "ordinary" within the ICB and they should be striving for more for their members.
Have a good weekend
Helen
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I have to agree with Helen regarding the Luca awards... The first I knew of it was when my training provider mentioned they were travelling down for it the day before it was going ahead because they had been nominated. I can't say that I have seen anything from the ICB with regards to how to nominate anyone, who was up for nomination or who actually won. I too have not seen an ICB newsletter for many months now but appear to receive at least two emails each week regarding ICBenefits, numerous emails from approved partner programmes and that is about it. I remember reading a while back that the ICB was putting together some kind of guidance notesrelating to bookkeeping in various different industries which would be an immense help to myself and pprobably many others but it has all gone quiet on that front too. I also pay my yearly membership fees and for a practice licence but have to say the only real benefit I am receiving at the moment is use of the logo. Yes, I know we have access to the helplines if we need them but it would be nice to actually feel like a valued member from time to time by receiving something other than emails trying to sell you stuff. The ICB put lots of member rules and regulations in place, and rightly so, but it is starting to feel like once you are a member you are pretty much ignored. Is there any reason why a newsletter has not been issued lately, why it has all gone quiet on the production of all this new material and why no one from the ICB seems to reply on the forums any more?
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Even the emails announcing new 'partners' to ICB have dried up for me.
I have only received one email this month from ICB and about five in October.
Maybe they are busy setting up even more partners to advise us of new cloud accounting etc etc etc???
Or maybe because I complained about their so called 'free' SageOne I have been removed from their emailing list!
Hope it is the latter!
Come on ICB - how about some response?
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Well, it' sheen over a month and around 37,500 views but nothing from ICB as yet. I get the feeling that I'm not alone in saying only a response from Garry Carter himself and a big change in how ICB treat members will do now.
This has now gone too far. Let's start getting some transparency And a reply
Kris
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Hi Kris and everyone else who has posted on here,
I am disgusted that no response has been given to this post.
Do they think if they ignore it then we will go away?
Not if we keep posting and bringing it to the top of the list!
Marilyn
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Hi,
I have just started my practice and I'm still studying with ICB. So it is the begining of my career...
It is very sad to read about these things.... especially when everything is new for me....
I feel the same as you all, I agree with every post.
Orsi
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Hi Orsi,
Congratulations on starting your practice!
Don't let this post give you any negatives thoughts because as long as the members can stick together and help each other then I am sure you will be ok.
In some ways it probably makes you more determined to succeed under your own steam as I have done.
Best wishes,
Marilyn
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Good Evening All
I have just come across the IAB 2015 membership rates and it's only £30 admin fee to convert exams across and become a member. I believe they also send each member a diary every year etc ....
Membership fees for 2015
(The subscription year runs from 1st January to 31st December)
ADMINISTRATION FEE £30.00
ANNUAL SUBSCRIPTION:
ASSOCIATE £85.00
MEMBER £95.00
FELLOW £105.00
There are no add ons for payroll etc ..
Regards
Trevor
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Hi all, as it has been said, well over a month and an amazing amount of views which clearly indicates the interest and concern of what is being discussed here and an attempt to understand 'Our' Association better. This is not a new topic as this appears to have been raised previously by other concerned members only to fade into darkness.
The damage has been done now for me and as my membership and license becomes due it is highly unlikely I will be sending a cheque to Mr Carter at ICB HQ, and I will just await the demanding communication that I must cease to use the designated letters and crest - I AM SURE!
There has been no response from ICB HQ, no defence and an unusual silence from training and accredited partners on this thread. Don't bite the hand that feeds you I suspect.
It is clear, it’s a business, to make profits, for the owners. That's fine, that’s all I need to and wanted to know. Simple. I am not seen as a member but a £ sign to generate income rather than the full thrust of aiming to make the best bookkeepers in the industry, to continue to support us and develop our skills and create a public profile and standing that shouts loud ' Invest in a bookkeeper in your business!.
What is also clear is that members want to show their qualifications, letters and a professional logo/crest to show we are an elite, but after that, that’s it there is nothing for members but to renew each year.
There is a massive opportunity here for an association to take us under their wings with a transition arrangement-even free, to give us members what we need and what we deserve - respect
Ultimately, if it is a logo we want and an association run by a council of members, then why not do it? Now there’s a thought.......
Christopher
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- Fellow PM.Dip
- Practice Licence
- Practice Licence
- 30 posts
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Christopher said:
“
Hi all, as it has been said, well over a month and an amazing amount of views which clearly indicates the interest and concern of what is being discussed here and an attempt to understand 'Our' Association better. This is not a new topic as this appears to have been raised previously by other concerned members only to fade into darkness.
The damage has been done now for me and as my membership and license becomes due it is highly unlikely I will be sending a cheque to Mr Carter at ICB HQ, and I will just await the demanding communication that I must cease to use the designated letters and crest - I AM SURE!
There has been no response from ICB HQ, no defence and an unusual silence from training and accredited partners on this thread. Don't bite the hand that feeds you I suspect.
It is clear, it’s a business, to make profits, for the owners. That's fine, that’s all I need to and wanted to know. Simple. I am not seen as a member but a £ sign to generate income rather than the full thrust of aiming to make the best bookkeepers in the industry, to continue to support us and develop our skills and create a public profile and standing that shouts loud ' Invest in a bookkeeper in your business!.
What is also clear is that members want to show their qualifications, letters and a professional logo/crest to show we are an elite, but after that, that’s it there is nothing for members but to renew each year.
There is a massive opportunity here for an association to take us under their wings with a transition arrangement-even free, to give us members what we need and what we deserve - respect
Ultimately, if it is a logo we want and an association run by a council of members, then why not do it? Now there’s a thought.......
Christopher
”
Hello All
Well what a magnificent trail of bleeting ............................. Actually we were one of the winners at this year LUCA awards. We won best large practice! And amazingly proud we were to recive this acknowledgment of our status as a fine bookkeeping practice! A recogniton that we are immensely proud of!
Facts: We work amazingly hard, we use our own commen sense to promote our work ethics, but we are enhanced by our membership of the ICB
If you are all so disillusioned why are you still portraying to be members? If you have the right work ethos, then surely using your membership of the ICB will only improve this status.
I worked as a sole trader for over 25 years before joining the ICB. Since joining them my business has gone from strength to strength. You only get out of anything accordingly to what you put in. Why do so many people expect everything to be handed to them on a plate? Unfortunately this is now very much the way of the world. Nothing comes to those that expect all, but give nothing, you have to work for it!
I also run a branch in Buckingham. I am actively involved in helping to promote apprenticeships in bookkeeping and bringing youngsters into an employment that is often percieved as stuffy and staid. With this in mind I try to give my students and youngsters the vision that with hard work and determination they will acheive.
This was proved wholeheartedly last wednesday when we were proud to accept the LUCA award for large practice of the year, I have to say my youngsters were probably the loudest in the BAFTA theatre when I went up to collect the award on their behalf. And I was proud of them for the way they ahve attributed to our award.
So I would like to thank June and Garry Carter, along with James and the rest of the team for the chance that you have given me, to be part of a team that has given the youngsters that I employ a chance to be someone! And to have a career that makes a difference.
Perhaps the lack of response from the ICB could be due to dignity, perhaps the griping was not worthy of a response.
I and all of my team are proud to be members of the ICB, and we will continue to pay our membership fees because we WANT to be part of this organisation. That is our free choice, as is yours to leave if you are not happy.
There has to be a reason that this year's summit was the largest ever, and after all the sponsors are there to offer you a service, you do not have to take it, that again is your choice. I presume most of you remain members and pay susbscription because you do actually get something back in return?
Enough wittering from me, I'd rather be working than whingeing!
A very happy LUCA award winner, and thank you again to all at the ICB for the chance to blow our trumpets, without you we would be little mice. :)
Edited at 23 Nov 2014 05:55 PM GMT
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Hi all again,
To add to Trevor's post ref the IAB - there is also an £80 fee if MLR supervision is required.
Hi Christopher,
Yes, I agree with what you say.
It is about time someone from ICB responded - but of course they may not want to put anything in writing which could be misinterpreted - this can happen when something is put in writing and is the reason I always read what I have written before pressing 'send'!!!
Marilyn
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Thought you'd be interested, I contacted Garry CArter via linkedin. Here's the response I got (within a few hours)
"Thankyou for your message; it is much appreciated. The post was brought to my attention. As you will understand, the last couple of weeks have been extremely hectic with Summit, LUCAs and also an internal staffing problem that has prevented me from responding as I might otherwise have wished.
The forum is intended to be a member-to-member forum and I do not personally feel it would be right for me to poke my nose into members' conversations. It is completely open and live. No post is vetted but Fellows are moderators to ensure that no bad or abusive language is carried, as it is also open to the public.
I welcome your personal contact. I do appreciate that I have now been called upon for a response and therefore intend to do so.
If you, or any member, wishes to speak to me I am always (well pretty much) available.
Kind regards,
Garry"
Not really sure what it means though.
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I guess the internal staffing problem - is Mike Foster being sacked !!!!
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